Blue Byline

A cop's perspective of the news and South Sound matters

New state law protects the wrong element

Post by Brian O'Neill on April 14, 2011 at 9:09 pm with 86 Comments »
April 29, 2013 6:45 pm

In a surprise move our state legislature did succeed in passing a gang bill during this session. The only problem is that it’s the wrong one.

Unlike the failed HB 1126, which would have disrupted gang activity through injunctions, Senate Bill 5242 will now be a tool for outlaw motorcycle groups to circumvent our state traffic laws. This measure has passed through our legislature, been signed by the governor and been added to RCW 43.101 as of April 13.

The bill was written because our state officials agree that law enforcement officers have been unfairly profiling motorcycle riders, and enough is enough. After some focused thought on the matter, my best attempt at an eloquent response is, “Huh?”

If police officers have shown any special interest in targeting motorcyclists for extra enforcement, then that would be news to me.  Along with many of my fellow police officers, I am a motorcycle rider and enthusiast. About the only consistent comment I hear when police officers contact riders is, “Nice bike.”

Nevertheless, I am pretty sure I know who sold our lawmakers on this fiction—the aforementioned outlaw motorcycle groups. These are not your “Wild Hogs,” as portrayed by John Travolta and his crew. These are clubs such as the Bandidos and Hell’s Angels that, like our local criminal street gang the Hilltop Crips, have been identified as a criminal organization. Like the Crips, the outlaw clubs have been the target of federal investigations as a result of narcotics trafficking and violence. Gangs and outlaw clubs share a similar mindset, as evidenced by the typical Facebook page of a local Bandido who described one of his interests as “taking care of snitches.” Unlike the Crips, the outlaw motorcycle clubs have some Hollywood cache and an excellent P.R. machine.

Back to the new state law.

The new code defines motorcycle profiling as the “illegal use of the fact that a person rides a motorcycle or wears motorcycle-related paraphernalia as a factor in deciding to stop and question, take enforcement action, arrest, or search a person or vehicle with or without a legal basis.” It establishes the requirement for training academy cadets on the evils of motorcycle and further  requires all police manuals to cover this issue as well.

What the new law will do, in effect, is muddy the legal water. Here’s an example of how bad this could get.

Take a standard arrest scenario: an officer makes a legitimate traffic stop for a red light violation and discovers that the motorcycle rider has a warrant. Subsequent to this arrest a search of his person reveals an unlicensed firearm and narcotics. The rider is booked on these felony violations and receives a court date.

In court the rider’s attorney claims that his client was profiled for riding a motorcycle.  The attorney demonstrates that the officer failed to receive the approved academy training (even though the officer may have attended the academy twenty years prior), and then points out that the policy manual’s coverage of motorcycle profiling is insufficient. This could very well lead to a precedent which might be quite detrimental to public safety.

If a defense attorney is successful in criminal court the next step, approximately five nanoseconds later, will be a civil lawsuit against the officer and his agency. At that point city, county and state law enforcement agencies might all be subject to class action lawsuits. All thanks to our state legislature.

For all the efforts made by our lawmakers in Olympia, this new law seems the least necessary and the most capable of harm. It is so far out of whack that I am truly scratching my head and wondering…

Am I missing something here?

Leave a comment Comments → 86
  1. The officer has a good point or at least several. I’m worried though that bicycles are being stereotyped. That’s far more probable in my opinion. It would be nice if they could pull over the hogs with the straight pipes.

  2. FreedomRider says:

    Really? I am not a badge carrying “motorcycle enthusiast”. I am a professional motorcyclist…a 1%ER! I ask that you all please view the following video on You Tube entitled “Trooper Piggott of the Washington State Patrol conducting Motorcylce Profiling”:

    http://youtu.be/-yuMenTgDh4

    Cleary the conduct in the video link above exceeds the “Nice Bike” comments the Officer would like everyone to believe.

    In truth, the Officer’s article is indicative he is the very type of Officer in DIRE NEED of the training now mandated by law. Silly Officer, “Simply being a member of the Bandidos MC or the Hell’s Angel’s MC is not unlawful activity. In fact, it is constitutioinally protected activity! You can’t mess with U.S. Citizens just because you don’t like them or what they represent in your mind…this is America…the Land of the Free…you know…”Freedom of Assembly” and all of those other old school principles our founding father’s set forth for us in order to protect us from tyrany…Sheesh! This cop is scarry but he is for real!

    Now you know why the law was passed…In truth, a very good Job was done by the legislators in reckognizing the video link above is not an issolated incident. The reality is “jackbooted” profiling is for real…now it is defined by law and preventative training is also proscribed for law enforcement…Why? Because law “enforcement” agencies such as the Washington State Patrol have actually been training officer’s with publications such as “Biker 101″ in how to conduct the very type of reprehensible profiling Washington State Law now clearly denotes as illegal…Do not believe the fear monger! Believe in Freedom and Protect your Freedom! …”Bad Cop…No Donought…’Nuff said!

  3. Brian O'Neill says:

    FreedomRider,

    I anticipated a reaction from a member of the biking club, and I thank you for the effort.

    I viewed the Youtube video and, like you, I was not impressed by the trooper’s professionalism. His attitude was the prevailing theme of the stop and it interfered with his job. However, just because this officer failed to conduct himself well does not mean that the legislature needs to create a law to protect a specific group. That would mean that any other group, let’s say truckers, could find an example of a police officer behaving poorly and claim that they needed separate protection under law.

    The reason for specific awareness on law enforcement’s part, whether it is in dealing with gang members or patched up 1%ers, is that they do not behave like the rest of the public. I have watched the video of a traffic stop where an officer was attacked by a patched rider using a knife attached to the bottom of the gas tank; I’ve seen groups of riders haul down I-5 at 95 mph and only the two extremely belligerent prospects in the back pull over. When enough of this type of activity comes to light it becomes clear that tactics have to change.

    We should be behave professionally while we protect the public. But no one in my line of work should ever have to apologize for wanting to go home at the end of their shift.

  4. BlaineCGarver says:

    I ride alot…I’ve been stopped alot (it’s mo betta fast) I legally carry, and so inform the officer, or trooper. I say sir. Officers and troopers have never written me a ticket….most of them want to talk scoots, or admire my AirLite.

  5. FreedomRider says:

    The officer proves the point once again by attempting to justify profiling of a patcholder simply because of one or two incidents. Gee, if one cop violates a citizen’s rights does that mean they all do? Of course not! Pierce County has a rich history of dirty no good cops who have violated laws from murder, domestic violence and child porn. If we were to use former Tacoma Police Chief Brame as a “poster child,” a good argument can be made that all cops should be disarrmed and provided night sticks like a Bobby for our safety.

    Come on, you can no longer profile…get over it! THE TRUTH IS PROFILING HAS ALWAYS BEEN ILLEGAL TO SOME EXTENT…BUT IF YOU DO IT NOW, YOU WILL BE AN OUTLAW COPPER!…

  6. gogoDawgs says:

    FYI,

    Since there is no ‘licensing’ of firearms in this state it would be IMPOSSIBLE to find an unlicensed firearm in your above scenario.

    As to the new law. I do not and have never owned a motorcycle. You should go ask the legislature’s who for the last 4 years have considered this bill and now passed it. You will find that it is a problem.

  7. TtownMatt says:

    I don’t see how an officer or anyone for that matter not profile someone. I profile everyone I meet whether I know it or not. If I am conducting an interview with a prospective employee, damn right I’m profiling. Knock on my door, you will be profiled. Want to babysit my childrem? You will be profiled. On the same hand, if I am driving through Hilltop, and I see several young men wearing colors and throwing gang signs, I have just profiled them as gang-bangers. Is that wrong? If it is I can’t help it. Basicly If it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck….. Now in the case of police profiling, If those gang bangers are just chillin on the curb, you got to leave them alone. I’m sorry, you know they are not good guys, I do too, but until they do something illegal you cant mess with them. Same with the biker crowd, or any group for that matter, but following them until they do something thereby creating a reason to pull them over is not acceptable either. I think a change in training and tactics would be a fair trade instead of a law that can turn the wrong way in court. But then again if you don’t want to be profiled as a (pick your group), don’t look like one. In a time when we need to close the rift between police and community, a little work and understanding on both sides goes a long way. And FreedomRider, I know how it feels to get pulled over by Piggot. It was pretty extreme. But i’m not judging the entire police force by his actions.

  8. Brian O'Neill says:

    TtownMatt- Well said.

  9. gogoDawgs says:

    No correction as to finding an “unlicensed firearm”? Firearms are not required to be licensed and surely a veteran officer knows this and would correct such serial misinformation.

  10. Brian O'Neill says:

    gogoDawgs,

    Thanks for thinking of me, but I thought you did a good job of refuting the idea that WA State requires firearms to be licensed. Sure, there’s usually a background check when you buy from a licensed dealer, but the only licensing issue is the permit to carry a concealed weapon. All in all, Washington State has more freedoms than the other Washington.

    Go Dawgs.

  11. gogoDawgs says:

    Thanks for the follow up. Yes we do have more freedoms, especially when it comes to our carry of firearms. If you get the chance come to the Second Amendment Rally in Olympia on the 30th.

    Go Dawgs indeed!

  12. Chief Batiste of the WSP has been targeting motorcyclists. 2 years ago, when we convened for black Thursday(motorcyle rights day at the Capitol), the WSP crawled through the bushes, taking down the license plates of the motorcycles that were lawfully parked for a demonstration. The bill was given a due pass recommedation last year and passed the house 96-2. OBVIOUSLY it was a problem. In the original house hearing, Klippert (E WA rep), and the dude from Enumclaw..;.Hurst I think said they couldn’t support it. Funny enough, Klippert said he has witnessed the discrimmination by other active duty law enforcement, but hasn’t done it himself(he’s a cop). The Washington State Patrol, under oath admitted in 2002 to still using a training manual called “Biker 101″, that starts out the very first line. “Bikers are dangerous.” It encourages cops not to let a biker put their kickstand down, forcing them to balance their bike. The cops are out of control, the only reason this didn’t become law last session was because our Senate hearing got bumped for the “Maurice Clemmons bail bill”. It’s a good law, and will go a long way to making sure that cops do not violate our rights as motorcyclists. It’s worded in a manner very consistent with other civil rights legislation, the states budget office estimated the cost to create a required training program to be about 5,000.00 total. Thank you Breeze and Double D for working so hard and so tirelessly to right this wrong. I was priviledged to be there to testify last year(I deferred my testimony time so Double D could finish educating our legislators on the actiivies of the WSP and other gangs in blue. Ron Smith, a former Seattle officer, and the officer that shot the guy in Sturgis after getting his butt kicked in a fistfight was taped threatening a motorcycle club member, telling him he belonged to the biggest gang, the gang of blue. When this tape was turned over to Seattle PD, they simply put him in a “training” class. Go back to protect and serve, not harrass and bully. This law was a long time coming. Rights are rights. Government does not give us our rights; they are inalienable, and come from our Creator. You do not have a right to harass me whether I have a patch on my back or not!!!!!!!!!

  13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQiFeKJ1PIo is the link showing the WSP crawling through the bushes recorded legally assembled motorcycles plates that were there for a demonstration against illegal profiling!!!!! LOL, if that’s not proof enough that the cops have been profiling motorcyclists, who knows what is. In 2010, a few of the troopers apologized. When I was cited in 2009 for my “illegal” helmet, out on Highway 12 along Riffe Lake, the trooper apologized. They are under a directive from John Batiste, Chief of WSP to “help motorcyclists help themselves” specifically targeting illegal helmets. I was doing 55 headed one way, trooper doing 55 headed the other, and he loops around just to pull me over, give my girlfriend and I 124.00 tickets for helmets, and go on our way. FMVSS418(federal motor vehicle safety standards, which is what our new helmet law requires the helmet to meet, has been ruled unconstitutionally vague. I went to court, and we both got our tickets tossed. LMAO, the trooper even put in my ticket that I hadn’t even torn out the sticker inside my plastic cap that states this is a novelty helmet, and is not a DOT approved helmet. Cannot wait until we can overturn the helmet law altogether. Many states are restoring rights of motorcyclists. It’s about freedom, and if I want to ride without a helmet I should be able to without having to wear one to State Line Road on my way to Sturgis(Idaho, Montana, South Dakota etc. all “give” the motorcyclist the right to enjoy their hair blowing in the wind if they so choose.

  14. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvGyjatgbJA adds a little extra information to Piggots stop. At the 6 minute, 8 second spot you will hear what WSP’s opinion of motorcyclists is “F#$&er’s”

  15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhEdHj4QVWM&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRLc3J8wrVY&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vDfdvSdQ94&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBwwLQzWjTM&feature=related

    This is the 2010 testimony that resulted in a straight due pass reccomendation. For anyone who wants to educate themselves regarding this issue, disregard Brians article, and watch this testimony. It’s compelling, and tells the real story of law enforcements continued, illegal harrassment of the motorcycle community. The clips are in numerical order, so you can watch the whole testimony that resulted in the committee taking the bill from a hearing to a due pass recommendation.

  16. lol, Brian is “moderating” what he allows to commented on?

  17. Brian has decided that the facts are not acceptable things to post. Anyone that wants to watch the complete testimony on February 2, 2010 that resulted in a due pass recommendation of this legislature, and a subsequent 96-2 vote in the house last year, you can youtube it. 4 separate parts. “we’ve got something to say” part 1, 2, 3, and 4 (search tacomatwitch all one word). Its the actual video of the testimony of Breeze and Double D that resulted in the legislators recognizing this overwhelming problem in law enforcement.

  18. arizonia says:

    Once more the 1%ers have managed to use the Propaganda Machine to hijack a cause for narcissistic purposes. And this time they ever so auspiciously wrapped themselves in the Washington state flag to do so .It’s a game people, and all the other 99% of motorcycle riders out there are being used. How clever, for the 1%ers to once more hide their agenda “in plain sight” within a crowd. Yeah….get It? It happens all the time.
    It is time to start doing what other countries have begun doing. And that would be to outlaw the outlaws, at the Supreme Court level. You see it is obviously not enough to label them organized crime; they must be legally categorized as such.

    In case you haven’t noticed, organized crime has our country, and the world for that matter, in a strangle hold. Their predatory acts have become more and more brazen…. with Wild West shootouts in Casinos and shootouts on the streets in broad daylight, not to mention violent brawling in airports. It is a type of” in your face” blood sport now common to the OMGs, hell, they even “off” their own members. Like the eight they just massacred in Canada.
    They have successfully corrupted their way across the country and are working in concert with other organized crime groups. To make matters worse, they have a propaganda machine approaching levels of success equal to that once operated by Joseph Goebbels, during the Hitler, Nazi regime. And that propaganda machine has been steamrolling its way across the nation at breakneck speed. Some OMGs have even gone so far as to hire PR firms.

    We can no longer, as a nation and as a society, afford the millions; if not billions of dollars that organized crime is costing us in state and federal revenue. However the greater cost is in human suffering which is of course incalculable.

    That said, every once in awhile it would be refreshing to witness a politician actually performing his or her duties appropriately and responsibly, by passing legislation that speaks to common sense and serves the masses, you know, the greater good…. and not just their political careers.
    As far as the guy in the picture, whom allegedly shot the cop, he is just one controversy and obviously, the OMGs are one big ball of controversy, nothing but trauma and drama, all of which comes with a price tag. Remember that 1%ers, their support clubs and associates are responsible for a multitude of violent, predatory crimes and happily pay their dues to what has been termed, “psychopathic organizations”, Organizations which have been known to provide support comfort and sanctuary to a whole host of criminals.

    Quicksand

  19. arizonia says:

    They have become masters at manipulating the system and this bill provides them yet another way to slip through a loophole. I believe that most of you defending the bill… already know this. It’s just more of the machine at work, now isn’t it?

    Truth to power…..

    99% of the bikers are honest hard working people. So are 99.9% of the cops. Still, the problem remains the same. As I have already explained, the 1%ers have insulated themselves within the other 99% of the riding community. And unfortunately, quite a few of those 99%ers want to emulate the 1%ers. Which sure creates a quagmire for law enforcement to struggle through, does it not?
    1%ers advertise their membership in a criminal organization….OPENLY, and for whatever daft reason we allow it. Then they scream harassment when law enforcement approaches them cautiously… and watches them closely. And I believe that LE would not be doing their job if they didn’t.

    Understand that this bill and the price tag attached to it, is political nonsense people. It is designed to placate a large voting base in Washington State….nothing more,

    Pretty soon everyone is going to get into the game. Think about it, prostitutes standing on a corner for six hours wearing knee high boots and short skirts, being told to move along could make a case that they are being profiled by police as well. But if I put on my knee high boots and stand with them chewing gum, and shooting the breeze….what will happen? I expect that I will appear to be what I am not. That’s what the 99%ers of the biking community need to recognize. It’s about personal and social responsibility. And if you want to be socially responsible…. as a group, you need to step away from the 1%ers. That means you need to stop supporting them and allowing yourselves to be used by them. More importantly you need to stop making excuses for their bad behavior.

    So, the reality remains, these politicians have just opened a Pandora’s Box that isn’t likely to be closed anytime soon.

  20. Brian O'Neill says:

    TMell,

    In regards to your comments about me moderating this conversation, I am not sure to what you are referring. It is true that I will delete comments, but that is reserved for commenters who simply drop straight down to name-calling and threats. I recognize that some of the topics discussed on this blog are controversial, and I appreciate different points of view. Some of the comments you see on this M/C profiling blog were fairly acidic, and while it was suggested by staff that I consider deleting these, I did not. This is a free country and if the language in a comment is not overtly threatening, or if comments are not just unimaginative name-calling, then I would consider it wrong to stifle that point of view.

    And speaking of points of view, consider this: just because I’m a cop doesn’t mean I know everything about motorcycle clubs, and just because you may happen to belong to one doesn’t mean you know everything about the police. Throw down your view and defend it as best you can. I don’t mind being challenged on the facts.

  21. TMell states that a Biker Manual entitled Biker101 starts out with “Bikers are dangerous.” Having been victimized by bikers myself, I would say, “Yes they sure as hell can be.” But then again so are street gangsters, drug addicts and lots of other people.

    But the real cost of this bill is going to become evident when dozens of thugs and con artist begin filling frivolous law suits left and right, to get their criminal azzes out of a pinch. Therefore Tmell, I believe that 5 grand estimate might just be a little on the conservative side. In fact it is ridiculous.

    “It encourages cops not to let a biker put their kickstand down, forcing them to balance their bike.”(TMell)

    I asked a former police officer the question as to why they might do that. He explained it this way….

    “At the end of the day my job was to make sure that the law was enforced and that everyone I was responsible for came out alive, and hopefully uninjured. That included me, the citizens and victims I dealt with daily. As well as those who might be breaking the law. Any moral and functional tool or maneuver that I could apply, to see that, that happened …was what I utilized.” If a guy holding his bike up aided that endeavor, then so be it.

    My job required that I routinely make split second judgments and sometimes judgments concerning life and death or simply the threat of it. My strategy was always the same, be respectful but air on the side of caution. If that inconvenienced a few folks along the way, again… so be it. But no one ever died on my watch.” (Tom)

    “The cops are out of control,” (TMell)

    I invite you to locate the amount of news articles you can find concerning police officers “out of control”. Then compare those to just ONE of your 1%er news sources. You will find the level of crime and corruption is totally inequitable when you compare the two groups. I have been performing research on the OMGs for years now, and the amount of articles concerning 1%er crime…. is almost mind boggling, to say the least. My point is, you cannot support that statement. It is obviously an emotional statement and not one based on fact… at best, it is inaccurate sir.

    “You do not have a right to harass me whether I have a patch on my back or not!!!!!!!!!” (TMel)

    No, you are right about that one. But if you announce to the world that you belong to an organized crime group….then you should expect to be observed closely. As the citizens, particularly those who have found themselves victims of 1%er violent crime, will continue to insist to LE that those who swear allegiance to such groups, certainly need to be. In other words, we will continue to expect them to do their jobs.

    Part of the problem with politicians making law to begin with, is that most of them understand very little about law enforcement or the struggles officers face almost daily. To be honest, most that I have met simply don’t care, let alone understand the realities of victimization. It is certainly not that politicians are bad people it is just that they are often misinformed or under-informed.

    Furthermore, they have a vested interest in playing to their constituency. Remember people, it’s all about job security. And yeah, it was shocking to see politicians getting cozy with 1%ers. After all, 1%ers are a one trick ponies… and we all know what that trick is. And though I am a woman, I seem to be the only one in the room man enough to speak….truth to power.

    Quicksand

  22. So FUNNY Arizonia, and Brian. GUESS WHAT???? I am not a 1%’er, have no club affiliations whatsoever, but the club members I do know are good, honest, hard working people. I own a business, employ 13 people, and am one of the best bosses and friends you could ever have in your life. I am loyal toa fault, friends with tons of cops from King County, Pierce County, City of Tacoma, etc. I knew 2 of the 6 officers that recently lost their lives due to criminals AND the overwhelmingly negative stereotype todays cops have created for themselves. With all the videotaping out there, you would think cops would act more professionally. I smiled so hard last week because a Milton cop waved me across when he had the right of way(he was just being a friendly person), and another Pierce County just shook his head and smiled at me as I emailed somebody while sitting at a red light on Meridian versus being a punk and pulling me over and writing a 124.00 ticket. When law abiding tax paying citizens do not like cops and do not feel like cops are their to protect and serve the public, can you imagine what the opinion of the criminal element must be to cops. Look at all the bad cops that the Police Guilds protect. Rich O’Neill, Guild President for Seattle: What a piece of work that man is. He is nuts with his comments. Garth Haynes, the drunk SPD officer waving a gun around in Pioneer Square. Delight here in Puyallup who thinks he should get his job back after running a car down and ramming it off duty because they honked at him for sitting at an intersection. Dougil in Gig Harbor who falsified documents for drug busts(200k plus in settlements) WSP Piggot who is on two of the video links provided in this string(90k settlement for one of the stops), McDonough in Bonney Lake who just had to “resign” October 23rd for falsifying overtime hours(and was suspended in 2002, then fired in 2003 and the Guild forced his rehire) and ordering 6 subordinates to do the same. By the way, he and Sainati were the two responding officers to the Bonney Lake boating death trial that just resulted in a not-guilty verdict. Sainati(sp?) admitted wrongdoing in the falsifying of overtime hours for the speed emphasis patrol. Their credibility was shredded, and the case was shredded as a result. Before you judge, do yourselves a favor and watch the youtube links I posted. David Deveraux (Double D) and Donny Landsman testifying before our state legislature…..if you care that was me “deferring my time” in clip #3(I was scheduled to testify but wanted the Breeze & Double D could finish their overwhelmingly excellent delivery of the facts).

    Brian-If you or any other cop think that a patch member in this state is announcing a gang affiliation you are a BAD COP! We have a law in this state which allows the state to identify a group of people(but it requires PROOF) as a criminal street organization. The state successfully designated the Hilltop Crips as a criminal street organization. There is not a single club in the State of Washington that has been designated a criminal street organization. Are you a good cop? Are you ethical? Do you follow the law? Should I paint you with the same brush as Christopher Coy Clark, Brame, Piggot, McDonough, Dougil, Haynes, etc????? In any group of people, you will find criminals-including behind that piece of tin and nightstick……… For the record, Sons of Anarchy is a fictional series.

  23. lol, my comments providing the links to the testimony are still awaiting moderation? Brian-you afraid people will form an opinion different than yours if they have both sides positions on this issue?

  24. Arizonia:
    Take 20 minutes and watch the videos on youtube by Tacomatwitch The comments are still “awaiting moderation”, i.e. being censored, but if you go to youtube, just watch them. 2 separate ones involving WSP Trooper Piggot, one of which resulted in a 90,000.00 settlement. Also watch the WSP trooper crawliing through the bushes recoding license plates of bikes parked for a rally against……waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttttt for itttttttttttttttttttt……..motorcycle profiling. FYI, we were also there for a number off other issues. reduced tolls for motorcyclists to encourage motorcycle ridership reducing the carbon footprint and wear and tear on the roads and bridges; a parade bill-believe it or not motorcycles are required to get WSP approval for parade participation. Its ok for people to sit on the back of cars, vehicles not legal for road use, etc, etc, etc, to participate in parades, but if a motorcycle group wants to have a parade for an event, and not be helmeted, they have to get WSP approval? What the heck?????? And with Chief Batiste’s targeting of motorcyclists as a group, that doesn’t happen.

  25. I am mistaken in one of my comments above. Hurst DID support the due pass recommendation from the House committee in February 2010. My apologies to Congressman Hurst…..
    Tim

  26. arizonia says:

    TMell, you are preaching to the choir…..having been the victim of club driven violent crime, I know, oh so well what they are all about.

    I hate to point out the obvious, but if you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas. And you are using deflection and redirection to keep from dealing with the facts honey. If you don’t want to get lumped together with the 1%ers …then step away from them. If you are one of them….well then you are busy blowing sunshine up everyone’s skirt here. :-)

    I read one of the comments up top, from someone who pointed out that he or she profiles every day. That person is right; everything else is just obtuse denial. The part that concerns me is we now have government participating in creating an, “unreal’ reality.

    Let me explain the situation this way.

    Once upon a time, I had a boyfriend who was a real azzwipe. He owned a zoopedup -cherry red Pontiac Tempest Custom. The azz end was set up so high it was like riding in the end car, of a roller coaster. Second gear scratch was common place and seen by him as a necessity, nearly every time he drove the car. He also had a liking for stopping traffic on the interstate to drag race. Never mind the tractor trailers behind him, closing in at 70 plus mph. Sometimes it was chaos and always irresponsible and extremely dangerous.

    Now being a young guy… a little thing called egocentrism owned him. And that was no doubt at the root of most of his stupidity, although some of it had to do with the consumption of too much beer, which made him more than a little batsh%t crazy.

    To say that this guy liked to “go fast” would be an understatement and when you mix the idea that men in general are fascinated with movement….well, what you eventually get is a blithering idiot behind a steering wheel, and a menace to society.

  27. arizonia says:

    Because of all this, it wasn’t long before he began drawing the attention of local law enforcement and a few highway patrolmen as well. What that meant was that they pulled him over about twice a week to complain…. about his straight pipes, mass acceleration, impeding the normal flow of traffic and just plain stupid driving. The occasional ticket would usually cool his jets for a time, and maybe saved a few lives along the way, because as you might imagine he had his share of accidents and CAUSESD his share of accidents as well. Why did he get pulled over? Well, because he was a well known reckless driver.

    From time to time I would get pulled over when I was driving the vehicle as well. Each time that I did, I would later rant and rave to my boyfriend about how the stupid cops just didn’t like young people or cars like his. I felt the cops were doing to us what we call today “profiling”. Keep in mind that I too was very young and emotionally immature as well. Then I grew up and saw the world for what it really was and began to understand the importance of personal responsibility.

    Get the point?

    Now that said, I read the room and body language, like nobody’s busy. Mostly because I am a woman and we are intuitive by nature. In fact most women can process information in 15 or16 different places in their brain…guys in 5…. maybe 6 on a good day,(most of them are sick of hearing me say that) The point is it is part of the human condition to profile. It is one of ways in which we have managed to survive and to evolve. In short, such instincts are inherent to the human condition and have been part of our psyche since the beginning of time.

    This bill is right up there, in my view, with “hate crime” legislation. It’s a lofty idea and philosophical at best. How on earth can we know what is in someone’s head.

    Rape isn’t considered a hate crime….yet I can tell you that in most cases it certainly is. Or at least it has been described to me by both victims and rapists alike as “gendercide”. It sure pizzes me off that it isn’t a federal crime. That is unless it happens on the space shuttle. That likely has a lot to do with issues of gender inequality in this country. Of course if you are a 1%er, or one of their buddies ….you likely believe that’s the way it should be. Give me a little time and I believe I could change your mind on that one.  But that’s another topic.

    So hey, I would like to get the issue of making rape a federal crime before the house for a vote. Want to take up my cause and help? No? Why not? I am trying to say that you are coming across like you have a chip on your shoulder honey. I can see you feel passionately about this but you are circle arguing. Meaning you keep winding up in the same place.

    Understand that we have numerous laws on the books that are there for no other reason, than the fact that they are simply reflective of the flippant and ever changing mood of society in general.

    Quicksand

  28. Arizonia:
    I appreciate your opinion, and if I seem to have a chip on my shoulder, its because I do. I have seen friends that are good cops be murdered, seen friends that good cops be treated like scum, BECAUSE of the bad cops. They may only be the 10 percenter’s, but when you have the Police Guilds protecting absolute scum criminal cops, it reflects poorly on all the good cops. When you have officers profiling someone based on the patch that is or isn’t on their back; it’s no different then when the black kid in Hilltop got pulled over because he had a nice car. Sure, pull over 10 of them, yank them out of their car, throw them to the ground, and you are probably going to find drugs and guns on some of them. But you are going to violate the civil rights of all 10, including the criminals…..It’s just the way our Constitution is. I’m 37, I’m grown up, I have 4 daughters, I appreciate good police officers. My office managers husband is a cop in a town VERY close to Puyallup. My neighbor is King County. I love good cops, and I appreciate them!!! What I hate is the dirtbag cops who destroy the level of respect people have for the profession, and the officers and guilds that protect them. They are part of the problem. Even criminals understand that certain civil rights exist by State Statute and by the US Constitution. This legislation was based on civil rights legislation. Its an extremely short, straightforward bill. I am assuming you didn’t watch any of the clips I posted? Surely if you did you would that profiling has been happening. You’d even see that one of the individuals testifying before our state legislature even mentioned that a lot of law enforcement probably don’t even realize they are profiling people. Todays 1%’ers are very different than 1%’ers 20 years ago. Just like you don’t think of the Kennedy’s today as drug dealers do you? Never mind that they ran bootleg liquor during the prohibition. Things change, things evolve, its just the nature of things. LOL, I can relate to your boyfriend and his Tempest. I have a 67 GTO I never got finished in high school, and drove a ’76 Nova with a 283, B&M Megashifter, little skinny centerlines upfront and big ol’ tubbed centerlines in the back. And yep, the butt end was up and the front was slammed. Makes me smile thinking back to that. I’m sorry you had a bad experience with a patched club, or a patched club member. I’ve had a bad experience with a couple patched members myself. Course I’ve had bad experiences with a few cops, with a few yuppies, with a few white people, with a few….I’m sure you get my drift. At the end of the day, we are all human and it would be a mistake to equate a patch with any criminal organization. And that includes the case we had in our state a few years ago, where a few members of a club did some bad things. They were criminals as people, not an organization. A couple corrupt cops working together does not mean the department is a criminal enterprise. If that was the case, the Seattle Police Dept. would top the list as criminal street gangs in our State-for real. But, we all know it is an element within the department that needs to be excised from their power; it’s no different with the clubs.

    Regarding rape-I’m right there with you. Sounds like you are passionate about that. I’m also passionate about crimes against children, and the lack of significant jail time for that. I’m also passionate about making car theft a serious crime versus being a nothing crime. I would encourage you to get involved….this law is proof that people can affect the laws of their State or Nation. We banded together by the thousands, and have forced the police departments to no longer profile someone based on their motorcycle related paraphenalia. It is a civil rights victory!!!
    Tim

  29. arizonia says:

    “I knew 2 of the 6 officers that recently lost their lives due to criminals AND the overwhelmingly negative stereotype today’s cops have created for themselves.” (TMell)

    I just read your message above. I wonder if you would say the same about your 1%er biker buddies? Do you think that maybe 40 or 50 years of their bros stealing, extorting, murdering, pimping, assaulting and raping might be to blame? That is for the bad reputation that they have developed……created for themselves.

    If you are part of law enforcement and you are convicted of a felony….like the ones I just mentioned here. Can you keep your job? Well? No? Well you sure as hell can if you are a 1%er, now can’t ya.:-)

    I too have known men and women on both sides of the isle. Problem for the 1%ers is that they cannot run from their reality. Crime IS the point…… In their world, it is what makes the world go round.

    You know, it is worse than your blowing sunshine up people’s skirts…you are blowing it up their azzes. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But you are making it really hard to do that.

    Remember honey, you can dress up a bulldog like a prom queen, wipe of the drool for the pictures….but it still won’t be welcome at the dinner table. Now maybe I am profiling bulldogs here…… but I didn’t get of the banana boat yesterday…. :-) and I sure as hell know the difference in an animal… and a prom queen.

    Have a nice day

  30. arizonia says:

    TMell, the reality is, there is a fine line between profiling and common sense, When I look over any individual my psyche is naturally performing a predator scan. The reason for that is because I have been victimized before.

    The problem of bad cops is so, so much smaller than the problem of bad 1%er bikers, I am sorry but as I said before, I have known both. The cops have always been respectful to me. Though I have met a few along the way that did not belong in the position they were in. As you can imagine my history with the 1%ers was anything but respectful. It was brutal.

    It isn’t our experiences about life that makes us who we are; it is our attitudes about those experiences. I have learned how to separate reality from fiction and right from wrong. And I know this bill is going to make for so much chaos in the long run. It also gives organized crime a leg up and that is the wrong direction to go with this.

    I accept your right to disagree…but seeing members of organized crime supporting this bill….was enough for me. Those Bandidos members did more to harm the cause that to help it. They would have done the biking community as a whole a better service, had they had the good sense to kept a quiet and respectful distance from the issue, Drool or no drool, they made a mess of the table.

    Quicksand

  31. Brian O'Neill says:

    TMell and Arizonia,

    I’ll leave you guys to deal with this topic because it is time for me to move on, but since you both have a lot of yourselves invested in this theme I wanted to add a final comment. I believe that we all make a conscious decision about where we stand in life, such as behind a biker patch, in a soldier’s uniform, behind a desk in a classroom, or wearing a badge. It is a guarantee that others will examine the rightness or wrongness of the company we keep and the actions we take.

    I’m comfortable with that.

    I am completely confident in

  32. Arizonia:
    Neither of the individuals testifying in those youtube links was a Bandido. One is a self-proclaimed member of the Outlaws, a Tacoma Club, and one is unaffiliated with any club, but a member of the COC, Confederation of Clubs, a motorcycle rights organization that has actually been working on unifying clubs, and quelling any potential violence that could occur when you pile a bunch of testosterone in any place(just like football or baseball fans). Obviously you have been harmed by someone who was affiliated with a club, and you have decided that all “1%’ers” are bad people. At least you have the ability to profile and judge that person because they declare their affiliation. When its someone with a badge-and I would guess even Brian(who can’t find a cops actions he can’t justify….well maybe Brame’s) abuses the publics trust it is much worse. And you are incorrect when you state that a cop that is convicted can’t keep his job. Delight, a Puyallup cop was just convicted of chasing someone down, ramming their car, pulling his gun(all while off-duty), and he is now arguing he is entitled to his job back. James Keller, currently a Bonney Lake cop, was previously charged with some seriously heinous crimes(charges leveled by a Des Moines officer, google it if you want information) which resulted in him being forced out of the King County Sheriff’s office. He has a restraining order against him right now related to a traffic stop, and beating two people up. If you care, inside their dept. everyone is convinced it was a different cop who beat the crap out of this couple…….that isn’t public information at present. However, a judge has granted this restraining order-and Keller still wears a badge and carries a gun, and can pull you or I over anytime he wants to. Have you not seen the beatdowns SPD has been handing out left and right? Did you not see Christopher Coy Clark, drunk a year ago at 104th and Canyon in Puyallup, crashing his car, then calling an on-duty subordinate from King County to help him out of the ditch. What about the TPD officer drunk driving? What about Dougil in Gig Harbor, falsifying statements for arrests? Then when he and his Guild President buddy don’t get promotions to Seargent positions, they accuse the chief of perjury????? Frickin’ unions are letting these pieces of garbage keep their badges, sullying the reputations of the real, good cops. Makes me sick!!!

  33. arizonia says:

    Why am I not surprised that one of those testifying was an Outlaws MC (OL)? How many indictments came down the pipeline for them last year? Wasn’t it around 27? I think about 17 plead guilty anyway. Two of them are dead, and isn’t it three big dogs who are now doing serious time? I am sure that is because they were all being profiled….right? Give me a break here.

    Unifying clubs….? Now there is another ridiculous idea. How do you unify them when they are busy kicking each other butts over territory. You are living in a fantasy world if you believe any of this claptrap. In fact, when you really do need to worry, is when they reach a point of unification. The COC is anything but the United Nations honey, which is another social experiment that has proven and expensive and an abysmal failure.

    “Pile a bunch of testosterone in any place”. (TMell)

    It seems you are making excuses for violent behavior by trying to normalize it. I have been to many, many functions with great big old alpha males all over the place, whom keep their hands to themselves at all times.

    Nope sorry, it’s not proximity or an overdose of testosterone that causes violent outburst, but rather it seems a mix of substance abuse, a lack of self control and deviant cultural norms as well as misguided core beliefs overall. That’s just my opinion of course.

    “Obviously you have been harmed by someone who was affiliated with a club, and you have decided that all “1%’ers” are bad people. At least you have the ability to profile and judge that person because they declare their affiliation.”(TMell)

    Truth to power…

    The only individuals that I have issues with are those whom have committed crimes against me. I do however have a bigger issue with organized crime in general. But that is because I am a civically and socially responsible individual. I am sure you view yourself as the same. That sir is why we are having this conversation to begin with.

    You can count on about 90% of society being well meaning. Only about 10% at any given time can fit the definition of predatory. Unfortunately because the OMGs provide a sort of bastion for criminals to lounge around in, that is while getting validation for their belief system, unstable individuals often seem drawn to the clubs. Clearly an OMG is already a comfortable fit for them. Further if you are in that 10% of society that is considered predatory, well – that can prove a pretty isolating and lonely place to be. Then add to the mix substance abuse and a variety of psychological and emotional disorders as well as mental illnesses, and then you get a recipe for a psychopathic organization, on steroids.

  34. arizonia says:

    Further it is reasonable to assume that most of the individuals drawn to the clubs are looking for a place to belong, a place where they don’t feel like a misfit. Problem is we are talking organized crime here. In other words… crime is the point. As far as members go, just as pointed out by Robert Hare, those that take the greatest risks are usually considered the best criminals, and they are often very gregarious and so many times find themselves in leadership positions. Unfortunately, because the others have been taught, under threat of pain and death to follow blindly along, and not question higher ranking authority ….they usually do so.

    The clever ones do their best to keep their distance from the criminal element of the clubs and have restraints in place such as a job, a business and or their family, which serves to anchor them a little firmer in reality. But some criminal behavior is unavoidable within the clubs. And when push comes to shove, everyone understands that they will be expected to participate and to produce.

    You have mentioned (if I am counting them right) 5 or 6 officers you believe are corrupt. Last I checked there were better than 840,000 police officers in this country. That said, I do not support predatory behavior on either side of the fence. If they are found guilty of those mentioned offenses they should lose their jobs and be dealt with by the criminal justice system, like everyone else. Do you think the 1%er clubs should do the same with their criminals? You know… kick them out. What do you think the chances are that they will do so? My guess is 0 to none since crime is the point

    Part of being successful in speaking truth to power comes by being able to identify with your adversaries position. Therefore understand that I do identify with what you are saying. Police officers are held to a higher standard than your average citizen. If they are breaking the law and getting away with it, then they are breaking the public trust, just as you have pointed out. But you cannot sit straddling that proverbial fence for long honey. You cannot condemn the bad behavior of some, while excusing it in others.

    I think it is the inequity of power that bothers you and perhaps the 1%ers more than anything else. I know what that feels like. Been there, done that. Hey, it’s as difficult world when you are doing your best to convince everyone that you are a combination of super- villain and superhero. That means that LE is a lot like kryptonite, stealing your thunder.

    I guess in the end it will always come down to our value system. In short that being what we are comfortable with and what we view as right and wrong. Or more simply put… what we can live with.

    Just remember that character is what you are in the dark. And as Brian said…, one thing is for sure, judgments one way are the other about who we are and the companies we keep are simply inevitable.

  35. My bad, Outsiders….lol, not Outlaws :). Just mistyped.

  36. You might have screwed up your facts….but I didn’t screw up any of mine.

    The good boys are all being used by the bad boys for insulation. Outlaw the naughty ones and the rest of us ride free….

    It not rocket science honey, just common sense.

  37. Yeah, I see your position is that all 1%’ers are criminals. And you are entitled to your opinion. Thankfully this law now doesn’t allow law enforcement to use the same blinders you choose to live your life with. Law Enforcement will no longer be allowed to violate the civil rights of individuals because they watched Sons of Anarchy, or because one chapter of some club somewhere had a number of members who, as a group of individuals, did something wrong. Its fine for you as a citizen to hold your bigoted views; it’s a whole different issue when law enforcement decides to make the same illogical leaps of thought. I would venture to say that we should arrest every police officer in our state because of our Bonney Lake and Seattle Police Depts. Surely, they must all be criminals huh? Crazyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

  38. arizonia says:

    Honey, let me help you think like a researcher and not like a guy with a chip on his shoulder.

    First and foremost I never said that all 1%ers are bad, the reason being …. I understand that each of us is a culmination of positive and negative traits, as well as masculine and feminine traits. We are multifaceted individuals whom act and react to our environments everyday of our lives. That said, we make conscious and unconscious choices about the path we travel and the associated we cultivate along the way.

    In my experience, those whom willing seek out criminal organizations to join are often troubled. The risks of that particular lifestyle are many and far outweigh the benefits. Most amongst us would find that fact easy to understand…. You must be standing pretty close to the abyss not to be able to puzzle that one out.

    Understand that 1%ers are not your average bikers. They are a different animal altogether… and I think you know that much and that you are playing a game here.

    I read between the lines and can read emotions of anger mistrust and hurt in your messages. I am sorry you feel those feelings. I know the truths and facts that I have shared here with you, take you out of your comfort zone and spoil the party that you and the 1%ers believe you are celebrating, that is at this moment in time.

    The reality is, OMG legal gains are fewer overall when compared to losses. Somewhere at their core they likely sense that.

    They have positioned themselves dead center in the crowd, surrounded by your average biking enthusiasts….That, in and of itself, seems evidence enough of their motivation. At least it seems clear to me that their concerns are egoistic and not socially motivated. It is similar in circumstance to that of the charities, which many understand are also being hijacked for egoistic and propaganda purposes as well.

    Do such actions not sound like the art of conning that I have been referring to all along? At least the pictures are all smirks and crooked smiles everywhere. The devils in the details honey. Most of us just don’t dig that deep or look that closely. That too is an art.

  39. arizonia says:

    To be clear here, most are more than a little nervous about the legislation being enacted by lawmakers in foreign countries, those counties being the ones who have reached their level of tolerance for the machinations of organized crime. The bottom line is that the costs socially, individually, politically and fiscally, of organized crime is simply too overwhelming for the system to absorb or to continue to tolerate.

    You see the ambitions of the clubs, the salient nature of their crimes and their control issues make the 1%ers their own worst enemy. And many are fearful that similar legislation will eventually be enacted here. I believe with time and effort that said legislation, is a given. Remember, it took time for RICO to stick as well… and so goes the way of the world.

    I could stop here and give you statistics and facts galore to back up my arguments, but I have no doubt that the effort would be lost on you, as you seem presently to be operating from a platform of denial. That is either a conscious or unconscious part of the deflection and redirection game that I believe you are playing here, and also is perhaps a result of your appearing, to have bought into the rhetoric, which is an intended consequence of the propaganda efforts of the OMGs in general. Because of all this, your arguments either fall flat or lead you to keep falling back on yourself.

    Truth to power….

    Sigh….I will say it again. I believe that this law will have little if any effect at all on riders in your state. It does however open the door for costly and frivolous lawsuits. Not to mention many a loophole for defense and civil attorneys to gleefully exploit. And that is what, in my opinion, the OMGs are celebrating here and nothing more.

    Have a nice day TMell.

  40. arizonia says:

    1st paragraph – last line, associations….sorry

  41. You too, I appreciate your opinion on the matter. I enjoy conversing with anyone who has a valid reason for taking the position they do, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. One of my very good friends is a hardcore liberal(oddly enough, also very intelligent). We have spent hours talking on fishing trips, and I truly enjoy hearing other peoples positions. In the event the State or the US is to make a RICO case stick against any motorcycle club, then they would be considered a “street gang” or “criminal organization, and merely wearing that clubs patch would be illegal. Its just not the case, no matter how many TV shows you read. And its clear you have formed your opinion based on something that happened to you.

    As far as Brian goes-maybe he’ll start pulling over every black male he sees-statistically they are more likely than others to commit a crime, so it makes sense to just pull ‘em all over right?????

  42. Brian O'Neill says:

    TMell,

    Your conversation with Arizonia has been interesting to follow, especially in that she clearly holds a polar opposite view than yourself. Her viewpoint is much like my own, so the difference in your replies to the two of us suggest only one thing- that you have a bias against police officers, regardless of how many you may know. I invite you to continue reading my blog in order to get a truer sense of my opinion, and feel that you will come to the conclusion, whether you like it or not, that I am against discrimination in any form. Profiling was illegal long before this most recent biker law. It truly changes nothing.

    Having said that, police officers still have a job to do, and it must be accomplished within the guidelines established by law and policy.

    I must also point out an error in your previous statement. The federal government (and some states) have already been successful in prosecuting several OMG’s, especially the Hell’s Angels, for organized crime violations through current racketeering laws commonly referred to as RICO. The OMG’s are largely considered criminal organizations in the exact same category as criminal street gangs. Thus, a case against a Bandido member (for example) is forwarded to our county gang prosecutor. Because of this status the intel gathering is permissible under 28 CFR Part 23, the federal guidelines for intelligence collection.

    Thanks for your comments.

  43. arizonia says:

    TMell, I have drawn my conclusions, based not just on my personal experience .But rather from years spent researching the subject of organized crime, as well as the 1%er biker subculture in general and those in our society whom support them…. and why.

    Anyone whom is interested can find copious amounts of information concerning 1%er crimes posted in a variety of public venues, those being newspapers, magazines and here on the net.

    The amount and predatory nature of those crimes is positively staggering.

    Yes, I have reason to feel passionate about the subject matter at hand and plenty of reasons to mount an emotional argument. But that would be counterproductive and would serve no one.

    Perhaps you have reason to do so too, on your side of the fence.

    That said, you must be able to back your position with facts from a variety of reliable sources. I can certainly do that and then some.

    I had originally posted this with the links attached – but my guess is that links are not permitted on this site. So you will have to settle for work cited….

    That said, why would other countries enact legislation to control organized crime or enact what have been termed “anti bikie” legislation? Please allow me to clear that one up for you.

    “HELL’S Angels bikers are taking over drug-running, pornography and prostitution rackets in Canada as they become the country’s main organised crime syndicate.

    read on

  44. arizonia says:

    Over the past decade, they have been waging a violent turf war in Quebec with a rival biker group – the Rock Machine – for control of the state’s billion-dollar drug trade.” (Hell’s Angels take control of Canada’s organised crime December 28, 2003 Scotland on Sunday)

    Organized crime in Australia is costing tax payers between 15 and 18 billion per year. They have around 300 outlaw motorcycle gangs to deal with. OMGs are believed to be responsible for 1 billion of that alone. That statistic comes by way of federal crime statistics. And that money goes in their coffers by way of the drug trade. Add to that human trafficking… and I can’t even imagine what the haul is on that one, but worldwide it is around 37 billion per year. I know the average trafficking victim is bought for between 3 and 8 thousand dollars and can earn his or her or pimp as much as 250 thousand per year, and she or he can be sold over and over again. As horrific as it is, some of those victims are as young as 6 years old. That is more than just morally reprehensible, it is evil.

    To give the problem of crime fighting scope, 1 in 5 of us will be the victim of crime in this country. 1million gang members will be responsible for 80% of the crimes committed each year. That equates to around 12 million crimes overall. RAINN reports that 15 of 16 rapists will walk free. We house 2.2 million prisoners in this country. (The American Dream April 26, 2011, Ten Facts about Crime in America That Will Blow Your Mind)
    (RAINN, Rape Abuse and Incest National Network)

    “In this view, American crime is not organized on the basis of ethnicity. Each major ethnic group possesses its own crime network, and these cooperate in illegality just as they would in ‘normal’ business. In New York or Philadelphia, for example, a roll call of the major syndicates would include Blacks, Italians, Hispanics, Irish, Greeks, Russians, and motorcycle gangs. In California, there has long been vigorous activity by Hispanic and Asian groups. Coalition between the various groups is provided by two factors. One is access to official power – the ‘cabal’ and its bureaucratic allies. The other is money, the shared need for finance, capital and ‘laundering’ facilities (Potter and Jenkins, 1985)” Organized Crime in London: A Comparative Perspective Published in Corruption and Crime 1986)

    US Department of Justice reports that there were 13,687,241 arrested in 2009. There were 12, 418 Murder or manslaughter arrests, 21.407 arrests for forcible rapes, 126,725 robbery arrests and 412,215 arrests for aggravated assaults.

    “Crime News: Two-thirds of human trafficking victims were age 17 or younger” (Crime in America.net February 28, 2010, Human Trafficking Reporting System (HTRS))

    In an article written by Scott North I learned that Washington State tax payers spent$345million dollars just to operate your state’s prison system. (Are we paying too much for prisoners? April 20, 2011, Herald Net)

    “What is the DOC overcrowding rate?

    The total custody overcrowding rate for DOC facilities as of June 28, 2010 was 140%. The overcrowding rate for medium security facilities was 152%. The overcrowding rate is determined based on the average daily population of the facility divided by the number of beds (design capacity)
    .
    What is the average cost to house an inmate per year?

    For Fiscal Year 2010, the average cost per year to house an inmate in the Massachusetts DOC was $45,917.05(Mass.Doc July 1, 2010, Public Safety and General Information)

    In this country and abroad, I should think that profiling is the least of any of our worries. Further nowhere are apathy and denial more dangerous than as such pertains to organized and predatory crime.

    That statement has nothing to do with any sort of prejudice of any kind. It has to do with simple reality……

  45. arizonia says:

    Well Brian, thank you for explaining RICO for me. You saved me the trouble Not that anything is getting through to these guys. I have tried on a number of occasions to reason with OMG supporters and active members; it is usually pointless as they are so deeply rooted in the rhetoric.

    It is almost comical to hear them repeat the same catch phrases over and over again. I swear it is like a broken record. I don’t think I can stand another reference to Sons if Anarchy or Gangland. I don’t usually watch television so I was at first uncertain what they were talking about. Apparently those programs have made a big impression on them. Either that or they feel it is disrupting the propaganda efforts.

    That said, I have personally believed all along, that education is the key to disrupting the progress that has been made by the Propaganda Bukksh%t Machine to date; After all, it is difficult to argue with the facts. Though even when presented with the facts, many will revert back to that obtuse denial that I speak of so often. If not that, there is a hasty retreat accompanied by the catch phrase…..”You don’t have a clue lady.” But the fact that I have more than a clue, as I have understanding and knowledge, is what troubles them most. I expect that most simply don’t know what to do, that is when I bring them face to face with those realities that they refuse to acknowledge. Perhaps it is uncomfortable for them when the con won’t work on me.

    Having said that, thank you for your service and I wish the best of everything to you… and TMell. With that, I too am off to greener pastures.

  46. Brian-I don’t have a bias against officers. BUT, I do hold them to a higher standard than the average citizen. The average citizen is not able to detain me, harass me, shoot me, taze me, arrest me, etc. The police should be held to a higher standard. They are the authority figure in our society, and as such need to be held to a higher standard. Hearing the opinion of police from both law abiding citizens and from people that may not be so law abiding(as our society defines our laws), it sickens me the reputation law enforcement has created for itself. And it sickens me when an officer defends the indefensible(btw thanks for utilizing that same criticism I used of you in the soft slap on the wrist article you recently used regarding TPD Chief Ramsdell). Cops that are bad cops, or defend bad cops hurt the good cops reputations. My opinion of Arizonia’s position as a citizen allowed to discrimminate or profile is absolutely different than a cop taking the same position. You are in a position of authority, and as such you are held to a higher standard. Just like you shouldn’t be a KKK member, you shouldn’t be making statements that the Hell’s Angel’s, Bandido’s, or any other club are bad people. This is the discrimmination this law was forced through to stop. It’s sick when a cop takes that position. I ask you to cite one single biker club in our country that has had a successful RICO case pursued AND proven. As you know, that would make wearing their patch illegal, or even congregating. Please cite me a single instance in our nation where there has been a successful RICO case made against a club. And yes, I am well aware of the case that was prosecuted against a couple criminals in Spokane a few years ago, as well as the case against a couple members of a club on this side of the mountain(up north).

    Arizonia-I will try one more time. Different countries have different laws. For instance in Germany, it is illegal for anyone to have any Nazi related tattoos, etc. For this reason, one club that has members in Germany do not allow members to have the SS lightning bolts tattooed on them at anytime AFTER they have become members, for solidarity purposes. If you have the tattoo(which most people in the culture don’t associate with Hitler but with an extremely elite fighting force) before becoming a member, you are allowed to keep it. In our country, we allow people the freedom of speech, now matter how vile it is. Additionally, our country is established on a precedent of letting 9 guilty men go free before 1 innocent man is imprisoned. We have different ideals and a different judicial system then most of the rest of the world, including Canada, Germany, Australia, etc. By the way, did you see on the news when a couple armed guys tried to hold up the restaurant a club was meeting at in Australia? 50 plus members bum rushed to two armed idiots, and held one until the police arrived, the cops found the other shortly. Sound like criminals to me too :). For every citation you quote of a biker doing dirt, I can provide you with a cop doing dirt, a businessman doing dirt, a bank doing dirt, a senator or President doing dirt, etc…….

  47. Brian O'Neill says:

    I’m not sure if I can continue this conversation, TMell, because I keep pointing out facts and you keep failing to acknowledge. Under WA State Law, most 1%er clubs, such as the Bandidos and HA’s, are criminal organizations. It is not, as I pointed out, illegal to belong to a criminal organization. This is a free country and that right is acknowledged by the Constitution and law enforcement. What that stamp does allow is for federal, state and local police agencies to investigate related criminal activity on these clubs under their title as criminal organizations. Thus, you have activities such as the trooper taking snapshots of license plates, and officer safety tactics such as having a biker keep his kickstand up. Because of their long criminal history and numerous specific instances of attacks against law enforcement (too many too mention, other than to say I got tired of watching videos of bikers assaulting cops while I was at the academy), these organizations get special attention. Just like the crips, the bloods and other gangs.

    Profiling has no bearing on intelligence gathering and has nothing to do with how a subject is treated AFTER a stop or detention. This law changes nothing.

  48. arizonia says:

    TMell, I was gone but your post begged me back…. Well, for the moment anyway. That said, you must understand that I read between the lines. I can sense the fear that 1%ers feel surrounding the anti biker legislation. That fear is so palpable that even their private thrashing about can hardly be ignored.

    Quoting you….

    “Additionally, our country is established on a precedent of letting 9 guilty men go free before 1 innocent man is imprisoned. We have different ideals and a different judicial system then most of the rest of the world, including Canada, Germany, Australia. (sic)(TMell)

    Understand that precedence, as it pertains to law, is set and reset. That is the benefit of the way the law works in our country. To be clear precedence is only precedence until someone wins a law suit or criminal case, thereby creating new precedence. Also keep in mind that the interpretation of law is often a grey area, which continually ebbs and flows with the ever changing tide of public opinion.

    Our founding fathers had the good sense to understand when the constitution was written, that our nation would grow and change, that is to say – evolve. Clearly they understood that our legislative needs, as a nation, would change with that evolution… as so it has. That is precisely why the provision of adding amendments was set in place.

    Our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness cannot and should not be circumvented or altered in any way. And therefore as you also mentioned, remain inalienable. I acknowledge and applaud your understanding of that particular concept. In fact you are dead right about that point, when we erode the rights of any individual, yes…we erode the rights of all if us.

    Again I am quoting you here….

    “I ask you to cite one single biker club in our country that has had a successful RICO case pursued AND proven” (TMell)

    I know this part of your message was addressed to Brian so I apologize to both of you in advance for addressing it here, as he is certainly more qualified than I am to answer it. I do however have my own take on it, so I hope you will excuse and indulge my brief, breach of “posting” etiquette. 

    Your mentioning RICO in the context you did, I am assuming, was meant to disparage any correlation between the clubs and individuals? In other words you see it as the clubs cannot be charged, but individual members can? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here. But I agree with Bryan on this point.

    Just as an argument can be made about red light cameras, as many believe it is unconstitutional to ticket a car. Though prosecutors would no doubt see the analogy differently, it is being done thousands of times per day and all across the country.

    I expect you are being coy here. But RICO is the least of their worries as again I point out that any organization that is deemed a threat to national security can be outlawed. I guess the question here is, should they be?

    As for my personal opinion, I expect that such consideration should be the next responsible discussion that we as a nation insist that our lawmakers revisit and examine more closely, as some question in that direction have already been raised. Step one….

  49. arizonia says:

    Quoting you again…

    “By the way, did you see on the news when a couple armed guys tried to hold up the restaurant a club was meeting at in Australia? 50 plus members bum rushed to two armed idiots, and held one until the police arrived, the cops found the other shortly. Sound like criminals to me too”

    You just provided me with another perfect example of the Propaganda Bullsh%t Machine and how it works. :-) Thanks for opening that door for me. I see you are a gentleman.

    In the case of the OMGs, the occasional grandiose gesture of socially responsible behavior is always justly or is it, “unjustly” celebrated with great vigor. That is to say, within the 1%er biker community.

    I can only imagine that when an opportunity, like the one you mentioned presents itself….well… like Pavlov’s dog, they are likely salivating at just the thought of what they might be able to do with such an opening. After all, no one can accuse them of creating it for personal gain. However, there is also nothing stopping them from exploiting it either…now is there? Hence, the Propaganda Bullsh%t Machine kicks into gear and suddenly once more the game is afoot.

    As the message escapes the underworld and begins to vine out, over time, so will the benevolent nature of the deed itself. Then with some careful tweaking and lots of practice, regurgitating the message will eventually become effortless within the core group.

    By the time it reaches perfection, it will be touted, believed and disseminated as the absolute gospel truth. Then and only then is it truly ready for public consumption. When that happens, it will finally be presented as a shining example of the most gallant, virtuous deed ever witnessed by mortal man. Suddenly and miraculously, your average 1%er biker has been transformed from an organized crime figure, into a knight in shining armor.

    Keep in mind that both descriptions were exaggerated in both directions intentionally, to make my point.

    In other words…., I ain’t stupid honey.

    Honestly… your mentioning this event leads me to believe that you too have been conditioned to spew the rhetoric, wittingly or unwittingly.

    So remember, when it comes to the messengers such indoctrination is in essence just another tool that is used to keep the machine greased and running smoothly. Further all OMG generated messages have a way of morphing into 1%er generated rhetoric. That is an intended effect as OMG members are enormously guarded and most understand that the clubs are being scrutinized closely by the general public.

    Yeah, the1%ers have a public relations problem ehich is growing like a malignancy and the Propaganda Bullsh%t Machine was built on the futile hope that the condition would not become lethal. Still, the problem remains that they simply can’t outrun the reality of their collective deeds.

    Sorry, but just as the clubs are the rawest form of organized crime, so is the truth in my message. When you reach the wall that I have just provided you here, there is nowhere left to go honey. I recommend that you turn around and see more clearly what the purveyor of the rhetoric you are repeating have led you to believe.

  50. arizonia says:

    Truth to power….
    .
    It is about controlling territory, human trafficking, extortion, drug dealing, rape, fraud and theft. And unfortunately the image the clubs have cultivated is one of crime and violence, the manifest product of an existence lived on the edge of wickedness. They have no choice but to claim ownership of that self imposed image because of the mounds and mounds of evidence to support that character description.

    Make no mistake about it, all the charity runs and P.R. firms in the world cannot undo the” brain freeze”, that accompanies the images one retains, after reading an article describing a stripper chained to a concrete floor, gang raped, cut with a grinder, burned with a blow torch to cauterize the wound, then run over with a Ute (believe or not I am sparing you the worst details here).

    Then there are of course the pedophiles, feeding drugs to children and then molesting them, underage girls forced to strip and prostitute themselves. How about the gang rape and torture of a woman with battery cables and a stun gun, women burned with hot spoons, beaten unconscious. Get it? Shot, burned, stomped, kicked stabbed, beaten, raped and gang raped. Subjugated, violated, manipulated, intimidated, exploited. How many women have taken the fall for the clubs? It is about control honey and it would certainly seem the women suffer the most.

    However the men get little mercy either. They get their tattoos burned off or blacked out, their families murdered, their women raped, personal property stolen; they get shot off their bikes. They get blow up, knees broken, skulls cracked …beaten with baseball bats, knuckle dusters, metal flash lights, hammers, hatchets… you name it. If it can break bones it has been uses.
    Then there are even those whom have had their digits’ cut off and throats cut. And once more, who can forget the horrific mass murder…. a bloody slaughter of club members at the hands of their OWN… club… brothers. How many are spending either the rest of their lives, or a significant part of it, behind bars eating Ramen noodle and baloney sandwiches every day for eternity? And you and I understand enough to know, that what they are eating day in and day out… is no doubt the least of their miseries.

    Obviously the public outrage that follows such brutality is simply unavoidable collateral damage. That is when crimes such as these are reported in the media on a near constant basis, and are obviously too evil and vicious to ignore. Sorry, but the OMGs are their own worst enemies. Apathy, tolerance or even mercy, when compared to such deeds, is simply not an option when it comes to public opinion..

    An argument can certainly be made that they are a culmination of greed and lust, built by… and secured on, a foundation of threats, violence and brutality.

    Keep in mind that I can adequately support, defend and cite every single word that I have written here.

    Truth to power baby….truth to power.

    Now, if you still don’t get it. Well, I leave it to Brian to explain to you….

    Best of everything to you TMell,

  51. arizonia says:

    TMell, I used the term precedence wrong, it should have been precedent as you properly used it, Upon re-reading what I wrote, I realized my mistake. Sorry if I confused you.:-)

  52. arizonia says:

    TMell, I used term precedence wrong, it should have been precedents as you properly used it, Upon re-reading what I wrote, I realized my mistake. Sorry if I confused you.

  53. arizonia says:

    TMell, when referring to precedents I used the term precedence that was incorrect.It should have been precedents, as you properly used it, Upon re-reading what I wrote, I realized my mistake. Sorry if I confused you.

  54. Best of everything to you too Arizonia. And if you care, the video is on YouTube, so you can watch the raw video, and judge for yourself.

    Brian-thank you for acknowledging that not a single club has been convicted of a RICO case in our country. I keep pointing out facts, and you continue to dodge them.

    Maybe you could concentrate on getting rid of corrupt officers. If your intention of having a blog is to defend/improve your professions relationship with its bosses(the taxpaying public) you of all people should want to get rid of the officers that denigrate a very proud profession. If your intention is just to be a talking head for Police Guilds that don’t care about having honest, ethical, capable and trustworthy officers on the forces, then you should keep doing what you do.

    Did you ever write about Dougil in Gig Harbor? Did you ever weigh in on his and his Guilds pressure to get him his job back? Does he deserve to wear a badge after having to claim on the stand he just made mistakes in his sworn statements that resulted in the guilty please and imprisonment of mulitple defendants(criminals of course-but just like Fuhrman and OJ, planting evidence doesn’t help make somebody more guilty)….what about the 270k or so in settlements Gig Harbor made to these criminals for wrongful imprisonment? Should this person be an officer? Should WalMart even be willing to hire him as a parking lot attendant?

  55. Arizonia-I knew what you meant :)…..and yeah I was referring to something COMPLETELY unrelated to legal precedence…. which does change with every court case that is decided. I was referring to the ideals that the founding fathers based our Constitution on. The limited scope of government, the personal freedoms that are recognized by our nation to not be granted by government, but to in fact be inalienable, granted by our Creator. When someone turns to page in their minds to realize that the government does not have the moral right to impose certain laws on us, that we in fact are free men(and women), and so long as our actions do not infringe on anothers rights or pursuits, many of our nations laws(for instance the helmet law crackdown Batiste is pushing right now) simply are not within the governments purview. The power of government(and police by extension) is severely limited by our nations Constitution. And many people are wanting their rights restored. This law is a step in the right direction in my opinion, and a Pandora’s box in your and Brian’s opinion. For now, Obama is still allowing us to have our own opinions, and I’m sure he won’t attempt to change that until at least after the 2012 elections :).

    Take care
    Tim

  56. meant “the page” not “to page” ….typo

  57. arizonia says:

    Honey laws are only created when there is a problem that needs addressing. Yes, as a nation we are limited as to what types of laws can be enacted.

    I am all about personal responsibility. As far as helmet laws go, it is no different than seat belt laws. But unfortunately, we are all paying for the fools that won’t wear them. The helmets I don’t know… they seem more like brain buckets to me .If you slam into something hard at sixty, with no protection around you, you’ re likely going to die, or be a vegetable.

    But should we charge them higher insurance rates because so many of them drive like maniacs? I have been on the back of a bike, more than once with the driver doing better than100 miles per hour, along with the pack at his back, and yeah… with all of them higher than a kite. Not a foot off the azz end of the fool in front of him.

    High risk behavior in the clubs is common, Sorry but that is just a fact….so should they be regulated? I should think if you don’t want to be regulated, then don’t be a problem for others to begin with.

    Unfortunately, you refuse to acknowledge any fact that is presented here. It is like you suffer from 3 monkey syndrome. You want others to acknowledge your feelings and points but won’t do the same in return. I am telling that if the clubs do not get their sh%t together soon, they will eventually become extinct, and why? Because people like me…..don’t want to be the collateral damage of their extracurricular “activities.”

  58. Arizonia,
    I have acknowledged every position you have taken. The cubs have evolved, just as the Kennedys have evolved….they are changing and have changed significantly. Brians unable to comprehend why a cop should be held to a higher standard than you when it comes to discrimminating against someone based on their affiliations….private citizens can be KKK members, they can speak evil about gays at military funerals, pretty much do or profile whatever they want to. It’s a different story for law enforcement. Brians position throughout this conversation is the proof of the necessity of this law.

    I hear what you are saying, acknowledge it, and simply disagree. Just as you disagree with me. Many states are recognizing the freedom associated with voluntary helmet use. Nebraska just changed their laws, restoring this right. It’s inherent in riding for some to want to feel the wind in their hair. I believe that makes it 16 that recognize it as a personal choice. For me, I love the ability to ride without a helmet. I ride without a windshield too(personal choice), the wind is half the experience for me. Some states require proof of addtional insurance to go helmetless…I’m headed to Arizona shortly just to ride helmetless(Cali and Nevada still require helmets)

    Speaking of refusing to acknowledge any facts, both you and Brian just aren’t willing to acknowledge that no club has been indicted and convicted under the RICO statute. The RICO statute, as you probably are aware, requires the state(or fed gvmt) to prove that the purpose of an organization is corrupt……not just that the organization may have a higher percentage of criminals in it then society at large(I will certainly acknowledge that 1% biker clubs have more criminals per capita than the general public…….but so do Black people, inner city people, males ages 14-25, etc. etc. The thing with RICO is that it requires proof that the purpose of the entity is corrupt…..the Mafia, the Hilltop Crips, etc. It’s never happened, because they aren’t corrupt organizations. Many members are law abiding, child rearing, tax paying citizens much like you and I, who like to ride like hell, accepting the risks associated with the behavior, and the reward being worth the risk. Living in a bubble is safer than coming into contact with bacteria; crossing the street is more dangerous than not….it all comes down to whether its worth the reward for you individually. I am a better father, boss, and man because of what motorcycling gives me. I get to forget about everything for a few moments….no mortgage, no bills, no kids, no daughters boyfriends, no work stress, no employee stress, no lawn to cut, nothin but the next turn in the road. And to have that shattered inappropriately by flashing lights is what this legislation is all about.

    I know neither of us are going to change the others opinion of the facts; you cite yours, I cite mine. And we both knew it when we engaged this conversation. I do appreciate you sharing your position, and your opinion of clubs. There are many people who agree with you; it’s just now illegal for the cops to use that for pre-emptive stops(BTW something our State Constitution outlaws that is Cop101 in most other states; busted tailight, didn’t use a turn signal, etc etc etc just to be able to make the stop)

  59. arizonia says:

    TMell, first I cannot see where Brian has been anything but informative and polite. He gives facts but you refuse to accept them. He is simply saying they don’t profile. I too give you facts, but again you refuse to accept them. Here is fact. Try reading it again because you just aren’t getting it.

    “The right to assemble allows people to gather for peaceful and lawful purposes. Implicit within this right is the right to association and belief. The Supreme Court has expressly recognized that a right to freedom of association and belief is implicit in the First, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments. This implicit right is limited to the right to associate for First Amendment purposes. It does not include a right of social association. The government may prohibit people from knowingly associating in groups that engage and promote illegal activities.” (Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary August 19, 2010, Legal Information Institute)

    Bingo!

  60. arizonia says:

    I watched a Finks MC member on Youtube today. He was busy squirming in his seat. It was certainly fascinating but comical to watch such “conning”, in action… just my opinion of course. I have seen such in motion many times before, up close and personal. But this time it was all polished, ever so bright and shiny.

    If you have not seen the interview, the subject matter concerned the efforts being made to unify clubs….well sort of. That is to say the discussion revolved around the creation of a council, under which big, burly discontented 1%er bikers could settle their grievances. You know, to have a place to talk about their problems, nice and civilized. To avoid what many see as the inevitable outbreak of biker warring. At least it is clear that tensions are heating up – and rapidly approaching the boiling point.

    That said, the statement was made by the Finks Mc member, “The clubs are not organized to commit crimes Individuals commit the crimes. That’s on their back.”(Ferret)

    To consider the authenticity of that statement…..I also encourage you to consider this:

    • Purchasing a vessel to locate (by GPS) drugs set adrift on the ocean certainly doesn’t come cheap and requires a group effort.
    • Protecting your clubs territory requires a group effort.
    • OMGs working in concert effectively, with other organized crime groups require a group effort.
    • Ultimately being successful at the art of conning, extortion, manipulation, as well as victim and witness intimation, all wrapped in violence to further your causes, requires a group effort.
    • Gang rape definitely… requires a group effort.
    • Human trafficking requires a group effort.
    • Maintaining control of a brothel requires a group effort.
    • Running a strip joint filled to capacity with subjugated, exploited, and often abused and sometimes trafficked underage girls….requires a group effort
    • Manufacturing and or smuggling and distributing illicit contraband requires a group effort.
    • Chop shops require a group effort.
    • Fraud and money laundering require a group effort.
    • Infiltrating and corrupting organizations, private contractors, lawyers, judges, prison guards, soldiers, law enforcement officers and politicians requires a group effort.
    • Running the Propaganda Bullsh%t Machine requires a group effort.
    • Blowing up clubhouses, and prosecutors, murdering witnesses, victims, and your rivals, brawling in an airport and casino, and in broad daylight on the street, require a group effort.
    They might not have been organized for that purpose of committing crimes but they have certainly been perverted and exploited for such. As you have put it “evolved” and that said evolution of the clubs, has slipped from a downward spiral of an existence on the edge – into a deadly drop straight into Hell.

    I want you to keep in mind when considering my above arguments and descriptions, that the monthly intake of dues alone could never, ever cover the cost of such endeavors.

    As far as RICO goes, as I understand it, RICO is about charging individuals not the club. That is why I mentioned the red light cameras. In that case, it appears you are giving the car a ticket and not the individual. There are questions as to whether that procedure is unconstitutional, or not.
    The reason the clubs aren’t being charged isn’t because they aren’t corrupt. Anyone with half a brain knows they are. No one…but no one gets through the door without proving their loyalty. Ummmm, now how could a guy do that…. You know prove your loyalty to an organized crime group…. I wonder?
    You see TMell, your position is ridiculous. You and I both know the truth. The bottom line is, anyone who has spent any time at all in a biker’s lair knows the truth….

    Remember the other statistic I gave you – 1million gang members are responsible for 80% of the crime.

    Now, my guess TMell, is that if these basta%ds brutalized someone you cared about, you might not feel so chummy with them.

    You keep mentioning the Kennedy family…This is a personal judgment, but I see them as a very privileged group of people whose family wealth grew out of illegal activity. There is no honor in that. Nor was there honor in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in what will forever be known as the, “Chappaquiddick incident”. How Edward Kennedy managed to remain a US Senator or even get elected to the office, I will never understand. That fact simply plays to how centrist and gullible people in this country can be.

  61. arizonia says:

    Okay TMell ,I re-read what you wrote above. Yes, what we value most in this country is freedom. Problem is, your rights/the 1% ers’ rights end where my rights begin. What that means is that I have the right to quiet enjoyment of my life.

    My quiet enjoyment was interrupted and my life was negatively affected by the group of people that you are defending here. Why would you do that? It seems more than a little socially irresponsible and insensitive.

    And make no mistake about it that is what it’s really about… personal responsibility honey. These guys can be as big, bad and ugly as they want to be… just as long as they don’t ask the rest of us to flip the bill and pay for the total destruction of peoples’ lives. And I can tell you first hand that for these guys… it’s a game TMell.

    Sorry about the repeated message. It wasn’t showing up on my end.

  62. We agree on the Kennedys…..

    RICO(Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) is misunderstood by you if you think it has to do with the individuals. A quick google search will explain RICO. It actually is specific to an organization. For instance the case the Pierce County Prosecutor was putting together against the Hilltop Crips just a few months ago. If the state is able to prove the organization is created/established for illegal activities, simply assembling becomes illegal. So does wearing of the identifying whatever(in a biker club that would be their patch)….

    Yes, you and Brian have been very generous with facts about individual crimes. So, will you answer yes or no as to whether there has been a single successful case in the United States where they courts have established that any motorcycle club is a corrupt organization? If you choose to answer this, its easy, NO.

    Your position is ridiculous, because you start with an assumption that clubs are organized crime syndicates….you know one of the largest and baddest clubs in the world makes so much off there apparel and supporter apparel. I was privileged to go on a ride a couple years ago with a club in the streets of Seattle. It was fun, and the cops didn’t harrass us. We kept going when the lights turned red, cars waited for the 250 bikes rolling together, the cops just stood and stared, the little red light cameras poppin…..I had a blast! Felt like a rebel for a minute, then had to put my business clothes back on the next day and go earn a livin’

  63. arizonia says:

    Tmell, “The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (commonly referred to as RICO Act or RICO) is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The RICO Act focuses specifically on racketeering, and it allows for the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes which they ordered others to do or assisted them, closing a perceived loophole that allowed someone who told a man to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because they didn’t actually do it.”(Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    Tmell, I don’t know where you get your facts….but you are misinterpreting how the law is used. I will of course point out here that the leadership of the OL were just tried and convicted under RICO.

    “WASHINGTON – The national president and three members of the American Outlaw Association (Outlaws) motorcycle gang have been found guilty of participating in a violent criminal organization by a federal jury in the Eastern District of Virginia.

    “Today’s conviction of the Outlaw’s national president strikes a crippling blow to his violent motorcycle gang,” said U.S. Attorney MacBride. “Riding a Harley doesn’t make you a criminal – but you cross the line when your motorcycle gang engages in violent criminal activity as a way of doing business.” (Department of Justice, Office of Public Affairs)

    “Richard “Smilin Rick’ ” Fabel was found guilty of being a member of a Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization (RICO) and conspiracy to commit RICO.” (Hells Angels club member found guilty in 2001 murder, By David Bowermaster and Christine Clarridge Seattle Times staff reporters)

    Perhaps you are feeling cocky about the Mongols trade mark seizure failing. That needs some tweaking honey. That didn’t work because … “Needless to say, the government did not make a sufficient showing that “a compelling reason” existed to justify the seizure. “ (VBalasubramani)

    That was round one. Each time some similar effort is attempted prosecutors learn from the effort, and get better at it.

    When these clubs start falling like dominos in the other countries…..I have no doubt they will begin to fall here as well. If that were not true the 1%ers would not be squirming and scrambling as they are.

    I’m not a lawyer or a member of law enforcement, but it seems if they are working with outside organized crime groups, well…. maybe the threat to national security angle would be a better avenue to explore.

    “Your position is ridiculous, because you start with an assumption that clubs are organized crime syndicates….” (TMell)

    It is not an assumption… it is reality. I have better than 1000 pages of nothing but 1%er crime. What do you live on Mars, where you been the last 40 years?

    (…you know one of the largest and baddest clubs in the world makes so much off there apparel and supporter apparel. I was privileged to go on a ride a couple years ago with a club in the streets of Seattle. It was fun, and the cops didn’t harrass us. We kept going when the lights turned red, cars waited for the 250 bikes rolling together, the cops just stood and stared, the little red light cameras poppin….” (TMELL).

    Yes that is a common maneuver. They frequently do such things because so many of them lack emotional maturity. They make a point of overwhelming the local law enforcement in the region, then like little boys acting out, they feel like big men for a brief moment in time. They need to go and get their testicals off the shelf and wear them everyday…

    “you know one of the largest and baddest clubs in the world makes so much off there apparel andapparel”(TMell)

    Hell you’re even afraid to say their name! But you are just showing respect right? No honey fear masquerades as respect in the 1%er world.

    “I was privileged to go on a ride a couple years ago with a club in the streets of Seattle.” (TMell)

    “(I will certainly acknowledge that 1% biker clubs have more criminals per capita than the general public….”(TMell)

    You know, by your own admittance you are keeping company with thugs….. How could you see that as a privilege, that is if you are socially responsible?

    “Many members are law abiding, child rearing, tax paying citizens much like you and I, who like to ride like hell, accepting the risks associated with the behavior, and the reward being worth the risk. “ (TMell)

    You know better than what you are saying here. Who joins a criminal organization just for the hell of it? If they are such law abiding citizens why do they like the company of criminals? Do you even read what you are writing here? Honey….I am trying to help you. You have not thought a single argument all the way though.

    Let me be clear here. The brotherhood is a rouse. It is only the brotherhood until the ship is sinking and they are looking at 15 to life. Then it is every man for himself.

  64. Brian O'Neill says:

    Running red lights with a mob of bikers makes you feel like a rebel, TMell? Trying waiting at a green light while 250 bullies make you feel like a second class citizen. When you’re in your business suit the next day the only way you should feel is like a hypocrite.

  65. Thats your opinion Brian. And you are entitled to it. It was an organized ride-people wait for funeral processions too……It was a group ride, the cops knew about it, people on the streets were giving thumbs up and video-taping it. It’s an annual event, I would have been just fine standing on the street corner in a business suit for one light sequence. LOL, speaking of hypocrites…..go back to “protecting” the cops like Ramsdell did.

    Arizonia-4 individuals were convicted in Spokane, of differing offenses. As you probably know, Smilin Rick was sentenced to 7.5 years, with 3 years supervised release for…..wait for ittttttt…. mail Fraud, extortion, and trafficking A(as in 1) motorcycle…You’ll definitely want to re-check your “facts” as they are incorrect. He was not convicted of the murders of anyone(other past members were, it’s all out there on Google)..as far as not naming clubs, it is simply a matter of respect when you are not affiliated with any club. I keep getting baited into replying to you, and you keep playing coy with facts. Yes, a few individuals were convicted of RICO, in fact the prosecutor said the individuals “relying on the power and intimidation of the Hells Angels”….that is a direct quote from the prosecutor. Even the prosecutor acknowledged this wasn’t an indictment against the club, but against a couple of its members who were in fact engaged in criminal activities…..

  66. BTW the parade bill also part of our push the last few years with the Legislature will be signed into law May 12th, HB1328 at 1:30 pm

    http://www.governor.wa.gov/billaction/2011/20110512.pdf

    This will strip Washington State Patrol of their unique control over motorcycle participation in Parades, allowing motorcyclists the same rights of other parade participants with Chief Batiste’s special blessing(which he always denies)

  67. arizonia says:

    TMell, when I quote the facts here, they are cited so you can see directly where I get them. You never post where you get your sources or defend your conclusions/hypotheses.

    I never play “coy” ….ever. It is not in my nature to do so. I am as “in your face” as the clubs are. I don’t know how you couldn’t have figured that much out by now. I don’t bait either, I respond to your posts with facts and truths. But you seem unable to speak to the truth. Your arguments are emotional not factual.

    “If the state is able to prove the organization is created/established for illegal activities, simply assembling becomes illegal. So does wearing of the identifying whatever”. (in a biker club that would be their patch)…” (TMell)

    Above you wrote a fact….no reference and nothing to back up your argument. No defense of your statement. Get it? I am not being coy, I am not baiting you. I am helping to educate yourself on the subjects you are writing about and to defend your arguments. If you want people to understanb your points defend them. Yes, I believe your passion….I question your sources. If you want to have and intelligent converasation…..explain.

    I think the point you are trying to make is that the clubs have not been tried separately? Give me some direction as to where you’re getting your sources on Google, so that I can understand your argument and resulting hypotheses.

    “The RICO prosecution drastically hurt the Crips and it slowed down gang activity in general,” he said. “Gang violence has slowed down in Wichita.”(Across Kansas, in communities large and small, youth gangs a fact of life, September 10, 2008, KansasLiberty.com)

    “The interlocking networks of OMG’s on a global scale has allowed American-based OMG’s to link common criminal enterprises and the benefits derived from them. In 1991 Interpol created Operation Rockers to counter the rapid expansion of OMG’s throughout the world. The objectives of this project are to identify motorcycle gangs that are engaged in continuous criminal activities” (Exporting American Organized Crime-Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs Journal of Gang Research Volume:11 Issue:2 Dated:Winter 2004 Pages:37 to 50; Tom Barker Ph.D)American Organized Crime-Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs)

    “The truth is that the primary reasons the Angels do battle is to protect their business interests. And these days, almost exclusively, that means the drugs trade. Across the world, biker gangs are involved in drug-dealing and trafficking on a massive scale. Estimates from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms suggest the Angels and the other biker gangs collectively earn up to £1bn a year from the drugs business.

    “The Hells Angels particularly are very involved in the drug-dealing scene in the UK,” says a spokesman for the National Criminal Intelligence Service. “Traditionally their commodities were cannabis and amphetamine, but they are moving more and more into Class A drugs.”

    Virtually every fight, every shooting, every stabbing and every bombing that has taken place between biker gangs in the UK and further afield in the past 25 years is ultimately connected to a desire to protect the highly lucrative drugs business – although they are also involved in prostitution, theft, extortion and other enterprises.”(Inside the biker gangs: the truth about guns, drugs and organised crime 14 August 2007 The Independent)

    “”relying on the power and intimidation of the Hells Angels”….that is a direct quote from the prosecutor” (TMell)

    Show me where you got this. All this does is make one of my points….yes the Angels intimidate.

    “it is simply a matter of respect when you are not affiliated with any club.”(TMell)

    What happens if you don’t “respect” them? :-) Respect is reciprocal; it must be given to receive it. Predatory behavior is not respectful to society. Being a criminal or the purveyors of violence is not respectful. By your own admission they are.

    “….people on the streets were giving thumbs up and video-taping it.” (TMell)

    Tthere arecertainly lots of personal reasons why people would do such a thing, If it was for recreational purposes or some kind of entertainment, my guess is they’ve never had the displeasure of being trapped under one of them… or ten of them when they were high on meth and pizzed at you, or wanting to “party”. Yeah that part is emotional, but all the rest… is cold, hard fact honey.

    So, are the MCs organized crime? Honey I didn’t give them that distinction…the federal government did. Hell, for that matter the world did.

  68. Seriously…ok, I’ll start giving you links. Google, “Richard Fabel & Hells Angels”, pick your story, I cut and pasted the exact words from a quote from the prosecutor.

    “coy” with the facts you aren’t? “Richard “Smilin Rick’ ” Fabel was found guilty of being a member of a Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization (RICO) and conspiracy to commit RICO.” (Hells Angels club member found guilty in 2001 murder, By David Bowermaster and Christine Clarridge Seattle Times staff reporters)”. Your quote-Care to rescind this “fact”? He wasn’t found guilty of that murder, or “in 2001 murder”…..

    You may consider yourself impartial regarding clubs; but it was just as obvious as my emotional position that your position was emotional too(never mind that we both have plenty of supporting facts for both our positions).

    I agree that a persons rights end where another’s begins. And if some criminals did something bad to you, I agree that they should be punished. And in some instances, a person of power in a specific sub-set of any organization can use the structure of said organization to create their own criminal enterprise. For instance, in Spokane…..or in many police departments throughout the nation. Remember the New Orleans murder, gun plant, and subsequent perjury of multiple officers? Surely you are familiar with the trials in our area of military personnel who, along with their Seargant, chose to create a sub-set of criminal activity utilizing the heirarchy of the military to murder innocent civilians overseas. This stuff happens, its horrible, and the specific offenders should be prosecuted, convicted(if the evidence warrants a conviction) and imprisoned or receive capital punishment depending on the severity of the crime.

    Again, I can’t say enough how sorry I am that you got wrapped up at some point in the past with a group of hooligans who happened to have a patch on their backs……and that some bad things happened to you. Of course, you have to look at yourself in the mirror, and remember at the time how much of it was consensual, and how much wasn’t. If you were looking for acceptance into a culture that has different “rules” than standard society, you may have willingly done things then that you wouldn’t do today. I don’t know, I wasn’t there; but you were. In looking back on our pasts, it’s important to remember our mindset and choices AT the time, versus todays mindset and choices.

    Yes respect is reciprocal. And I am perfectly comfortable walking into known “club” bars in my area and having a drink. I give them respect, they give me respect-no big…..I have even had friends make “mistakes” that they don’t know are signs of disrespect in the society they are hanging in. And its not like 30 years ago where someone automatically got a beatdown for brushing up against someones patch or touching a vest. They are educated quickly about the sub-cultures “rules” and its not that big a deal unless they choose to make it a big deal. I’ve ridden to Sturgis and back, I’ve been drunk in Gunners with club members from all over the nation, no issues. The one issue in Sturgis in the last number of years? A jacka#* named Ron Smith from Seattle Police Department running his mouth, with an Iron Pigs patch on his back….5 on 2 fight(2 HA, 5 IP), getting his butt kicked and he pulls out a gun and shoots a dude. Hides behind HR217, which has a specific provision that you cannot be under the influence of alcohol; of course, no breathalyzer test or blood test to determine if he was under the influence of alcohol. The “Iron Pigs” a supposed law enforcement 3 piece patched club had multiple members carrying firearms. One was border security, another(Erik Pingel) was a fireman. He pleaded to the illegal possession as he had no HR217 to hide behind. To this day, the people that have seen the video surveillance of this situation are the security at the bar, the jury that indicted Ron Smith, and the judge who tossed the indictment. Security says Ron Smith was jawing with the HA members for quite some time. If you want to educate yourself further, google “Ron Smith & Seattle & Hell’s Angels”. You’ll see what a fine piece of work this officer was. BTW, he attempted to sue his department because his Chief inaccurately stateed it was a police issued weapon, when it was really bought on a personal basis. Got his feelings hurt, thought it was worth 160k +/-. This is the officer that was recorded threatening an HA member that he belonged to the biggest gang in the world, the gang in blue. SPD’s response? They sent him to a retraining class, where he was reminded he’s not supposed to threaten people in his official function as a Law Enforcement Officer. Thankfully, the department did finally get rid of him.

  69. arizonia says:

    In all of that you have written concerning the clubs. The only part that you got right is that they have evolved….., they are more organized, have better connections, more members, better equipment, better weapons you name it.

    You support them, I get that. You don’t seem to like law enforcement. I get that as well. As far as respect….

    “They are educated quickly about the sub-cultures “rules” and its not that big a deal unless they choose to make it a big deal.” (TMell)

    The clubs don’t make the rules for me or the rest of society. :-) Sorry if you believe they do. It’s that quiet enjoyment concept that I was talking about, TMell.

    “Of course, you have to look at yourself in the mirror, and remember at the time how much of it was consensual, and how much wasn’t. If you were looking for acceptance into a culture that has different “rules” than standard society,” (TMell)

    Who, what or why, you know nothing about my personal experiences. Consent……? Out the question honey…you see I haven’t had my rabies or tetanus shot. :-)

    I see, you think that your 1%er chums want to make your own rules. Well then…. find some nice unoccupied island and claim ownership, move all your bros there and call yourself king. THEN YOU CAN MAKE THE RULES. Until then….well I guess you are stuck with the ones already on the books. I hate to point it out, but if you were trying to score points here, you coming up empty. But hey, at least you aren’t being profiled.

    You say you like cops… but then you keep mentioning law enforcement officers using derogatory terms and situations to represent them. Now, to be clear here, I do not like organized crime. I think it is bad for society. I am in no way hypocritical about my feelings. How about you?:-)I think your chip is showing again.

    Just so you know the RICO quote that you are so offended by, came right off the net. The date was the date the article was published the rest was the title of the article. I was just using it to help you understand RICO prosecutions, which you obviously don’t. It was not an accusation honey. Perhaps you don’t understand how to,”cite”. So get your panties out of a bunch. Now my guess is you are a gigantic HA supporter. That is certainly your right.

    Article written by Bill Morlin, Staff writer. “Richard “Smilin’ Rick” Fabel, the president of the Spokane-based chapter of the Hells Angels, will be in a federal prison until 2012 under terms of a sentence he received Monday in U.S. District Court.

    The 50-year-old outlaw motorcycle gang leader was convicted June 11 of federal racketeering and conspiracy charges at the end of a 10-week jury trial in Seattle. Two other Hells Angels, who also were convicted, will be sentenced later this year.” (Head of Spokane Hells Angels gets 7 years September 18, 2007 SpokesmanReview.com)

    Head of Spokane Hells Angels gets 7 years: Title of article

    September 18, 2007: Date of publication

    SpokesmanReview.com: Publisher

    Article written by Bill Morlin, Staff writer: Author

    Besides, I am sure that “Richard “Smilin’ Rick” Fabel is a righteous dude.
    I would like to play this game with you all night and day. But I am sorry honey. I can only deal with reality, not this pretend world.

    It’s all smoke and mirrors where you come from. And I don’t know how to help you understand. Clearly, you are too deeply rooted in the rhetoric, deflection, redirection and obtuse denial, that is to see anything clearly. So we are simply circle talking here. I am sorry you feel frustrated or angry; I was only trying to help you. But I agree to disagree. You have a nice night TMell.

  70. http://www.justice.gov/usao/waw/press/2007/sep/fabel.html is the specific link you were requesting where the prosecutor specifically said Fabel used the Hells Angels organizations reputation to further his own criminal enterprise. In the event you care, I’ll cite the lengthy judges ruling pre-trial.
    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/37997899/USA-v-Fabel-et-al
    Fabel had a long rap sheet. But, regarding clubs, please take a moment to look at paragraph 39. Yes, the judge forced the prosecution and its attorney to NOT refer to the club as a “gang”.

    I have no interest in scoring “points”. We are working hard at the legislative level to change the laws in this state and others to better protect our God-given freedoms. Some of us meet with God when on our motorcycles, with the wind in our hair. “If I have to explain it, you woulnd’t understand” is a common Harley euphemism(sp?). However, based on your comments, I’m guessing you do understand that.

    I also agree to disagree, and feel that you too are deeply rooted in your beliefs; as I am in mine-and I’m not getting through to you either. But I do appreciate the conversation and the exchange of ideas. It’s what allows each of us to ultimately evolved into whatever person we become in our lifes experience.

    Thanks again for the conversation; definitely show up tomorrow to watch the Governor sign into law our parade bill. It’s at 1:30 pm :), and it takes back a right the Washington State Patrol has stolen from bikers for MANY years :).

    Tim

  71. evolve, not evolved….saw it as I hit the submit button….

  72. arizonia says:

    Finally something I can sink my teeth into. You are learning TMell! We can disagree but I can only identify with your position if you provide the tools for me to do so.

    “….Fabel recruited violent criminals into the club and rewarded them for criminal behavior that enriched and enhanced the club.” (HELLS ANGELS PRESIDENT SENTENCED TO LONG PRISON TERM Chief Judge finds “Smilin Rick” September 17, 2007, U.S. Attorney’s Office)

    Now let me tell you what I do understand. The people, and in particular, the leadership ARE the club. Remove the people and there is no club. You are using a sort of tongue in cheek analogy to support your opinion. Is the glass half full or half empty? :-)

    Such a defense comes across as more like that smoke and mirrors that I was referring to, quite simple it’s subterfuge. In fact a better way to describe would be a CON.

    I once had a conversation with a biker chick, who of course hated my honesty. She made the comment never bullsh%t a bullsh%tter. Hers was probably the only real attempt at self actualization that I ever come across in the 1%er biker community. In other words, remember that I understand your position better than most and that means I also understand the game better than most as well.

    “…relying on the power and intimidation of the Hells Angels…. Taking what he wanted from whoever he wanted and having his gang of thugs to get away with it.” (HELLS ANGELS PRESIDENT SENTENCED TO LONG PRISON TERM Chief Judge finds “Smilin Rick” Fabel led Criminal Enterprise that “Preyed on Vulnerable September 17, 2007)

    Where did he get the gang of thugs? Oh yeah, they were part of the club. They pay their dues, and does the clubs benefit from the criminal activities? That is to say… financially? No…no that’s right. It comes from dues and selling T-shirts.

    The CLUBS as a whole provide support comfort and sanctuary to those thugs and dare I say criminals, get it?

    Paragraph 39 involves the “club” not be referred to as a gang?
    Gang:

    a group of youngsters or adolescents who associate closely, often exclusively, for social reasons, especially such a group engaging in delinquent behavior.

    a group of people with compatible tastes or mutual interests who gather together for social reasons.

    a group of persons working together; squad; shift.

    a group of persons associated for some criminal or other antisocial purpose.(Dictionary.com)

    Club:

    a heavy stick, usually thicker at one end than at the other, suitable for use as a weapon; a cudgel. (This was simply too ironic to pass up)

    a group of persons organized for a social, literary, athletic, political, or otherpurpose, the building or rooms occupied by such a group.

    an organization that offers its subscribers certain benefits, as discounts, bonuses, or interest, in return for regular purchases or payments

    Perhaps whether the “clubs” fit the definition of a “gang” is subjective at best. If you read the definitions above you can certainly see that much. Obviously in my opinion and in my experience they certainly do fit the definition of a gang.

    “Again, I can’t say enough how sorry I am that you got wrapped up at some point in the past with a group of hooligans…” (Tell)

    Funny you don’t sound sorry.

    Oh….hooligans? Wow that sounds so benign…so .innocuous doesn’t it?  I wouldn’t really put it that way, myself. Let me see, I would put it more like sick, twisted, violent basta%ds. Yeah, more like that.

    .“…who happened to have a patch on their backs.” (TMell)

    Actually, they didn’t just “happen” to have it. That sounds more like a way of distancing them from the club and their collective criminal behavior. Keep in mind that I think in terms of reality honey.
    (Remember that little thing you are working on) To be clear here, I think they were given the patch by their club brothers and club leadership.

    “you may have willingly done things then that you wouldn’t do today. I don’t know, I wasn’t there; but you were. In looking back on our pasts, it’s important to remember our mindset and choices AT the time, versus todays mindset and choices.”(TMell)

    It isn’t OUR past…it is MY past. And I can say with a great deal of certainty that your mind set and mine… are not AND NEVER HAVE BEEN….even in the same hemisphere honey, therefore, the description “our” certainly does not apply here.

    I was victimized TMell. I walked through a door not knowing what was behind it. The description “victim” means exactly that. So sorry to disappoint you, but there is nothing of personal responsibility to read into it, in short, I had no choice in the matter and I am not responsible for the illegal actions of others.

    What you are doing is called victim blaming, it is psychological in nature and makes you feel more secure in your environment. Such as, “That can’t happen to me. I don’t dress like that. I don’t walk like that. Those guys like me. I don’t point out the flaws in their arguments. I am biker smart, so I don’t break the rules like her…..”

    Maybe it is you who should look in the mirror TMell because you seem to have an identity crisis to deal with. You see, you seem to think you are pulling off the prom queen charade, when in really your biker buddies have simply dressed you up to look like one. And this paragraph you wrote about me was worth its weight in gold. :-) At least it was worth waiting for. Though my guess is you are far too narrow minded to recognize the significance of your words.

    I have said it before, but I’ll say it again.Honey, it’s hard to hide the fact that you have fangs when you are constantly snarling and drooling.Like the Fincks MC member, your word belie your true meaning. At least you hardly seem the civilized, thoughtful person you are hoping to portray here.

    You have a nice night…. :-)

  73. arizonia says:

    Yep, that was emtional…..

  74. Arizonia, As I said, I have no idea what you went through. If you were a victim of violence, I am very sorry for that.

    When I am referring to “our” I don’t mean you and I in that our experiences or mindsets are remotely the same. “Our” refers to each of our individual experiences that shape and mold what WE are. In no way did I mean for you to understand my words to indicate that we had the same experiences, or mindsets.

    Im not victim blaming. I don’t know what your situation was. You do. Apparently yours was not a choice you made. What I was pointing out is that many girls who choose to engage in the club lifestyle later consider things from the mindset they hold at some future date. That apparently isn’t the case in your situation.

    This conversation was interesting for quite some time, loved all the “honeys”, and the repeated statements that someone who disagrees with you must be smoke, mirrors, CON, etc. You are entitled to your opinion. And yeah, in Spokane, a President of a club recruited some bad guys to be members. And they were tried and convicted. And the prosecutor indicated that the individuals used the reputation of the club to further their personal criminal enterprise.

    What you apparently fail to grasp is that you are posting on an opinion blog. You may want to cite source after source, and you certainly are welcome to. I posted a couple links at your request; but I feel no need to link every source on an opinion blog.

    I am offended that you would accuse me of victim blaming. We don’t see eye to eye on this subject; and we are still allowed to have our own opinions.

    Here’s to an amazingly successful legislative session. Our parade bill passed overwhelmingly, as did this profiling bill. the profiling bill passed the house the first year 96-2. You and Brian might think the cops don’t need to be stopped from profiling, but obviously our state lawmakers do. Additionally, John Batiste will no longer be able to harrass bikers regarding parade applications, denying them the same rights others enjoy in parades…..It’s all good. With that, I have enjoyed the conversation up to the last post, and am going to exit the conversation before it gets any nastier. Up until the last post, I felt we had both shown each other a fair amount of civility while disagreeing at the core of the issue.
    Take care
    Tim

  75. arizonia says:

    I am sorry if you feel insulted, but I just batted the birdy back when you hit it on my side of the net.

    Best of everything to you …..TMell

  76. arizonia says:

    Well Brian, I am off but first I want to thank you for your unbelievable patients. These posts between TMell and I were anything but short. I greatly appreciate you allowing us both the opportunity to make our points fully.

    I am sorry though, that I seem to have run off your biggest fan…At this point I am not sure which one of us he dislikes the most. My guess is I’m not going to be his BFF anytime soon. :-)

    I have learned from experience that conversing with these guys is a lot like peeling off the layers of an onion. It leaves you feeling a little drained when it’s over…… :-) and it always requires a great deal of tolerance. But if you are patient enough and just let them roam, they will usually bring your points home for you.

    I wonder if the Judge presiding over the “Richard “Smilin’ Rick” Fabel, trial would be surprised to see how these guys now view the words and directives, he used during the trail. Just as I also wonder what the Governor’s reaction was when she woke up to the pictures of her with the grinning Bandidos. Not to mention the public relations firestorm that followed. I think the word her secretary used to describe the pictures was, “regrettable.” Yeah…that was the understatement of the year. :-)

    These politicians may well have gained a few votes from 1%ers and their supporters….well that is of the ones that don’t have a string of felony convictions and still retain their voting privileges. But unfortunately, what those politicians have likely done is to have insulted and alienated a whole host of laws enforcement officers across the state of Washington, as well as their families and friends. Most of which I am certain will be responsible enough to vote.

    Well… that said,once again I thank you for your service.

  77. Brian O'Neill says:

    Thanks Arizonia, your comments have been very educational as well as eloquent. Your conversation is exactly the type of dialogue that this blog was intended to spark. As for the topic, which I have almost forgotten, my biggest concern from the profiling legislation is it passed 95-0 through the state senate. They probably thought it would be an easy and cost-free law, but I believe they will be surprised.

    Keep reading.

  78. arizonia says:

    Yes Brain, the big surprise in cost will no doubt come in the way of frivolous lawsuits galore. It will be just another tool of miss-use to overwhelm the already strapped system. It certainly protects and empowers the wrong element just as you pointed out.

    It is a sad state of affairs in this country that our lawmakers have come to routinely enact legislation that clearly lacks forethought and is more akin to being self serving rather than for the greater good. I expect that is the inevitable outcome of a system that has taken public service from being exactly that….a service, to becoming what it has evolved into…..a career. That in and of itself, creates a quagmire for citizens and in particular law enforcement officers, to muddle their way through. The staged photo ops and gubernatorial mansions are a long way from what our forefathers likely envisioned.

    As far as TMell goes, I apologize to you for the nasty comments that were dredged up and aimed at law enforcement, by way of his responding to my posts. It’s just that I’ve had enough experience with these guys to understand and expect where his responses would eventually lead…I knew that the end game would surely show his true colors. :-)

    “What I was pointing out is that many girls who choose to engage in the club lifestyle later consider things from the mindset they hold at some future date.” (TMell)

    For those who don’t already know, the 1%er clubs are male dominated, chauvinistic organizations. The women are referred to as property and or often subjugated and abused. Most play a subservient, support role within the clubs.

    Understand that such submission is required not appreciated. Whatever level of intimidation, manipulation or force that is necessary to accomplish that subservience…in my experience, will be used.

    TMells statement above seems a veiled acknowledgement that the women are usually not treated well and often come to realize that they have been exploited or abused by club members, usually at some later point in life. Yes, as in the OMGs it is all about the “trauma bonding.“ Therefore his statement is of course true, but confusing to readers who likely don’t understand the role of the women in the clubs. Or why TMell would on one hand acknowledge this fact, while on the other hand declare that he feels privileged to be accepted and to ride with the group. Of course he himself doesn’t seem to understand the discrepancy in his statements either.

    This is, as he pointed out, an opinion forum therefore my opinion would be that women don’t really matter much to him. Or he would likely find it difficult, given that acknowledgement, to associate with 1%er club members.

    I am sorry we disagreed on this point. But his post directed at me was rather like a Freudian slip……I stewed on it for a day, but in the end it begged a response. I felt more could be gained for the response than would be lost. I did of course know that once I called him out…he would make a quick exist, just as he did. But for the women trapped in that world, I do hope the acknowledgment of their predicament brings them hope.

    “Nothing great has ever been achieved except by those who dared believe something inside them was superior to circumstances.” (Bruce Barton)

  79. arizonia says:

    exit, sorry

  80. Arizonia, I have actually been gone the last 9 days fishing in Eastern Washington and Northern Idaho :)…had a blast, banged a bunch of Northern Pike on the Pend Oreille River, and tons of bass and Lake Trout over in Idaho, then back to Roosevelt and Banks…..Just got back into town last night.

    The reason I chose to exit the coversation was that it had been civil up to that point. I enjoy conversing with people that disagree with me, as long as we can have a civil discourse. When you choose to intentionally “misread” my statements, pervert them into something I did not say, then accuse me of victim blaming based on the twisted interpretations of the words I didn’t say, I feel the positive aspect of this conversation has probably run its course.

    WIth regard to women, and their treatment within some club society-I don’t care for it at all. But it also doesn’t define the culture as a whole at all. And I truly don’t understand why some women choose to live that lifestyle-but it is their call.

    Just as law enforcement has a higher incidence of domestic violence than the general public-I would certainly agree that a higher percentage of club members than the general public have misogynistic attitudes towards women. And I don’t personally approve of either; but I don’t label everyone in either of those cultures by the fact that there is a higher incidence within their subculture than the general public.

  81. arizonia says:

    “The reason I chose to exit the conversation was that it had been civil up to that point.’ (TMell)

    Civil….? Tim, you were insulting me. Sorry honey but its Sir Isaac Newton’s first law of motion here…

    “The first statement — a state of rest will continue unless a force is applied — seems intuitively correct. The second statement — an object will continue with a constant velocity unless compelled to change by an impressed force — seems contrary to common experience. It is important to realize that objects observed to slow down are being compelled to change by a frictional force. Friction is a retarding force that is ever present in our everyday world.” (Physics — Newton’s Laws of Motion)

    “WIth regard to women, and their treatment within some club society-I don’t care for it at all. But it also doesn’t define the culture as a whole at all. And I truly don’t understand why some women choose to live that lifestyle-but it is their call.”(TMell)

    “…doesn’t define the culture as a whole…” This statement doesn’t make sense. First and foremost, other than the level of criminal activity in the 1%er clubs, nothing but nothing defines them more than the treatment of their women or anyone for that matter, whom they deem weaker than their collective selves.

    Yes I have said that before. The woman are MORE often than not, abused, exploited and manipulated into producing for the clubs/gangs. Short of the Taliban, not many group are more openly chauvinistic and male dominated than those attached to the 1%er biker subculture.

    A woman in that world is the summation of her female body parts. You and I both know what terminology is used to describe her. I was called the “C” word so many times by 1%ers that I almost forgot the name my mother gave me.

    “And I truly don’t understand why some women choose to live that lifestyle-but it is their call.”(TMell)

    You are assuming they choose. Many have no choice or believe they have no choice.

    You keep expressing that the clubs have evolved…yet 1%er doctrine and rhetoric concerning the women remains positively antiquated. Obviously you already know this or you wouldn’t be acknowledging my point.

    “When you choose to intentionally “misread” my statements, pervert them into something I did not say, then accuse me of victim blaming based on the twisted interpretations of the words I didn’t say” (TMell)

    Newton’s first law again….your insulting characterizations propelled me into motion.

    Like I said, it is all about obtuse denial, deflection and redirection. Those being the smoke and mirrors I mentioned in my previous posts.

    Tim, I quoted your words exactly as you wrote them….it seems it is you twisting the meaning, not me. Here….allow me to remind you of your words.

    • Hooligans
    • happened to have a patch on their backs
    • Of course, you have to look at yourself in the mirror, and remember at the time how much of it was consensual.

    Any woman whom has been victimized by a group of ”hooligans” as you so flippantly put it, would likely have been offended by such a frivolous and minimizing characterization.

    Now, you just being a mortal man and all, it is likely that you lack the stop sign that should give you pause, that is to say before actually making such references. I get it; you’re a guy… you properly don’t spend a lot of time pondering your own feelings, let alone anyone else’s.

    Understand that the above statement is NOT a characterization. It is simply a representation of the physiological difference in male vs. female brain function. :-)

    By Satoshi Kanazawa “Men’s greater systemizing and mechanistic skills are the primary reasons why they are better than women at mathematics, physics, and engineering, because all of these fields deal with various rational “systems” governed by rules. Women’s greater empathizing and mentalistic skills are the primary reasons why they are better at languages and why they are better judges of character. Women also dominate primatology, which, like mothering of infants, requires understanding and reading the minds of individuals with whom they cannot communicate by language (What is a male brain? What is a female brain? March 16, 2008 The Scientific Fundamentalist)

    So, indulge me here…. In essence your minimizing and deflective characterizations though perhaps subconscious, serve as a catalyst which seems meant to shift responsibility from the victimizers, into the laps of those they chose to victimize. And that TMell, certainly sounds like victim blaming to me.

    “Of course you have to look at yourself in the mirror…” (TMell) (Redirection)

    The above statement implies that I am culpable for my own abuse.

    “Consensual” (TMell)(Obtuse denial)

    For the abused woman, the abuse itself equates to victimization. However I acknowledge that a woman may be conditioned to accept the abuse, sometimes preconditioned from a very young age, but I have personally never met even one abused woman, whom I would deem responsible for the abuse leveled on her, though I assure you that I could likely produce dozens and dozens of 1%er males who would claim otherwise.

  82. Arizonia-I have tried 2 or 3 times to re-iterate that I was stating “our” as in everyone-not you & I….That conversation “you have to look in the mirror” was not specific to you or your situation, as I have continually pointed out. It was meant in general context of all of us and our lives, and how we grow as people, mature, and ponder back on previous decisions made at a different time in our(again, collective societies not you & I)…..lives.

    You have simply re-proved my point of misquoting my words, trying to demonize them, and pervert them into something I was not saying. It’s easy to do-just grab one line out of context…happens all the time.

    I totally agree with you and Kanazawa about the differences in male and female brains. God made us as a complement(completion, not compl”i”ment) to each other; and women are by far more nurturing, and more in tune with “feelings” than men.

    I will try one more time, but then I give up. I am in no way attempting to minimize whatever trauma you incurred. As it obviously happened at the hands of a club member or members, I can understand(not at all stating I can fully understand to the level that you do-please don’t misinterpret my words to be stating that I can have the same visceral understanding of something I didn’t experience-because I am NOT stating that) your position.

    If you can’t accept the fact that I was never trying to minimize your personal experience, and in no way was stating whether that was or wasn’t consensual, I don’t know what else to say. If you were referred to as the “C” word so many times you almost forgot your given name, you probably immersed yourself in one of the 1%’er clubs that treat their women like property. And there are some out there. And there are women who proudly wear “Property of xxxx” on their backs….

    I wish the very best for you, and hope your club experience didn’t sour you on enjoying nature and all of God’s glory from a motorcycle. At the end of the day-that is what it is about……and that is where the clubs started from, and that is where the clubs are returning to(in my opinion).

    Here’s to hoping we can leave this discourse with a civil disagreeing on facts and opinions. I thank you for the time you have put into this discussion, it certainly has been enlightening to hear detailed thoughts and opinions from someone with a diametrically opposite opinion than my own.

    Take care,
    Tim

  83. arizonia says:

    Tim, you are stuck on the “our” thing and I am not sure why, because I am not. How you view my experiences is of no consequence. I accept your explanation.

    That said, I could provide you reference after reference of male on female violence within the 1%er clubs. But the effort would be lost on you. At least I have no doubt that you would dismiss the information I provided you – and then likely respond that the abusive behavior itself does not define the 1%er clubs. Just as you claim the criminal behavior, though clearly perpetual and ubiquitous, also does not define the clubs. (Obtuse denial)

    The mistreatment of the females is widespread enough to be considered part of a cultural norm, a core belief within the group. And take my word for it; grooming the women is as much a slow, methodical process as the grooming of the probates and prospects is. And worse some of the women are given no choice in the matter at all. Those being, the ones trafficked by the clubs…. or as you would believe, simply club members.

    In am being careful here to provide the entire quote so you don’t feel I am taking your words out of context.

    “-I would certainly agree that a higher percentage of club members than the general public have misogynistic attitudes towards women. And I don’t personally approve of either; but I don’t label everyone in either of those cultures by the fact that there is a higher incidence within their subculture than the general public. “(Redirection)

    Tim you are preaching to the choir again, as I understand their misogynistic attitudes like nobody’s business.

    But Tim, you also keep straddling the fence here. I am sorry but you can’t have it both ways.

    You first acknowledge the criminal element within the clubs, then discount or negate the effects of such on society by ever so casually dismissing the behaviors, as if you are swatting a fly away.

    “I wish the very best for you, and hope your club experience didn’t sour you on enjoying nature and all of God’s glory from a motorcycle. At the end of the day-that is what it is about……and that is where the clubs started from, and that is where the clubs are returning to(in my opinion).” (TMell)

    Tim, I am sorry but if an opinion is not based on fact, then it is emotional in nature. There is absolutely nothing at present to suggest that the clubs are going back to being “about riding” At least not the 1%er clubs.

    The OMGs are growing and growing and becoming ever more prolific at the art of organized crime. Some have had the sense to recognize that society is growing wise to the con and weary and often outraged at the brutality of their crimes. So the clubs’ leadership is doing their best to back pedal, that is with the hope that they can prevent the implosion of their criminal empires.

    That said, the peaceful, law abiding, riding clubs are truly about the riding experience and the fellowship of the group.

    Now you do seem to understand that 1%ers often mistreat females and maintain, again in your own words, “misogynistic attitudes towards women” which you claim not to approve of. Therefore, by way of that statement I can assume that you acknowledge the deprivation and degradation of females within the subculture….right?

    Astonishingly, these acknowledgments go hand in hand with your insistence that you feel honored for having been accepted enough within the group to be permitted to ride with them in a funeral procession.

    Further, by way of your statements, if you are hanging with them, then you are knowingly and willingly keeping company with criminals…. but on the other hand, you state that you believe that criminals should go to jail.

    Also you claim to like law enforcement officers yet, in this forum; you often speak of them disparagingly, almost venomously. At least it seems clear to me that you view them as the enemy.

    Perhaps it is the rule of law….the order that they represent that you dislike, more than the officers themselves. You see…I get that, from the male brain vs. the female brain…. thing. :-)

    At least it seems you feel a kinship to those who make no bones about the fact that they prefer to make the rules themselves… and I know from experience that 1%ers often choose chaos over order. What I mean to say is that the dysfunction is often the function by which they function…and frankly, most of them like it that way. That would refer to such behavior as” freedom”. I would refer to it as “Mad Hatter or Peter Pan Syndrome”

    Tim, at this point none of your points seems clear. At least they often come across as disingenuous or in direction conflict to what you seem to claim as being your “inner most feelings”.

    Understand that none of this has anything to do with my twisting your words. But rather, has something to do with the presentation of your beliefs and ideas.

    Have a nice night, Tim.

  84. I’ll leave this conversation where it is. Please don’t interpret this to mean that I agree with your opinions, or your opinions of my statements, simply that I don’t think we’ll get anywhere that’s productive.

    Take care….here’s to summer coming.

  85. arizonia says:

    Finally, something we agree on. Have a good summer. TMell….

  86. I need to say, as considerably as I enjoyed reading what you had to say, I couldnt support but lose interest after a even though. Its as if you had a great grasp on the subject matter, but you forgot to contain your readers. Possibly you must think about this from far more than one angle. Or possibly you shouldnt generalise so significantly. Its better in case you feel about what other people could need to say instead of just going for a gut reaction to the subject. Think about adjusting your own thought method and giving others who could read this the benefit of the doubt.

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